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Thanks for your stab at what seems like a reasonable budget. I agree with Nils that cleaning does need to be included. And we also need to include 3 months of operating expenses in our budget.<BR>
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For the $3.9k per month operating expenses: that figure is an actual average of our costs divided by the number of months we've been in existence (October through the end of May, when I calculated it).<BR>
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Mitch.<BR>
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<BR>> From: ieatlint@tehinterweb.com<BR>> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 16:37:36 -0700<BR>> Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] 2169 Mission status<BR>> To: aestetix@gmail.com<BR>> CC: maltman23@hotmail.com; adi@hexapodia.org; noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net<BR>> <BR>> Okay,<BR>> <BR>> Concerns are always valid, and I won't argue with anyone for bringing<BR>> up any valid ones. This is in fact the whole basis of consensus.<BR>> <BR>> So let me run some vague numbers here.<BR>> <BR>> Our current income, which would need to be confirmed by our treasurer<BR>> as I'm primarily using the google doc budget posted a while ago (<BR>> http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=rfDTgx3F76nTE8ghiFDzr1g&hl=en<BR>> ), appears to be $4.5k/mo for May and June.<BR>> <BR>> This document also makes me question if our burn rate is actually<BR>> $3.9k/mo. While averaging our expenses for the duration of 83c, that<BR>> may be accurate, but that includes an inflated $4k/mo rent for the<BR>> first two months (covering deposit and such), and about $3k in legal<BR>> fees that I presume will be much less now that our 501c3 application<BR>> process is lower. Our burn rate seems to be closer to $3-$3.2k.<BR>> <BR>> Anyway, with our stated goal of 3 months expenses in the bank account<BR>> for the new place, our new burn rate is of more concern.<BR>> <BR>> $3.6k/mo for rent<BR>> $180/mo for internet (which, btw, seems insanely high for our quality<BR>> of service)<BR>> +Insurance at an unknown rate<BR>> +PG&E at an unknown rate.<BR>> +Cleaning at an unknown rate<BR>> <BR>> If we assume double for both, we'd get $4k for insurance annually (but<BR>> paid up-front) and $600/mo for electricity (which isn't likely to<BR>> actually be double). As for cleaning, I'm not sure as it also calls<BR>> into question if we should try and solicit work from members/guests to<BR>> cover this and try and save money.<BR>> Without cleaning, and with my estimate for pg&e, we'd be looking at<BR>> about $4.4k monthly burn rate, and $4k added to the startup cost.<BR>> For safety, if we assume a $5k burn rate, then we'd need $15k in the<BR>> bank to cover 3 months.<BR>> <BR>> So, looking at this, we need these amounts before we can move:<BR>> $15k for 3 months in the bank.<BR>> $4k for insurance.<BR>> $3.2k for final month at 83c.<BR>> $3.2k for the first month at 2169 ($5k/mo - $1.8k break).<BR>> The deposit which wasn't mentioned by andy, but I'll guess at $3.6k<BR>> <BR>> That's $25.4k so far.<BR>> PLUS buildout/cleaning and moving expenses (in the literal things from<BR>> here to there), which are hard to estimate and vary wildly depending<BR>> on our demands, desires and quotes we receive.<BR>> <BR>> Right now, we have the $21k in the bank, $13.854k in pledges, and an<BR>> expected $4k+ from dues on August 1.<BR>> That's $38.854k, and assumes people pay their dues and honour their<BR>> pledges (a reasonable assumption.. plus, the $4k is how much in dues<BR>> we got in June, and should be more now).<BR>> <BR>> This would leave $13.454k for buildout/cleaning and moving.<BR>> <BR>> So, feel free to argue with and alter my numbers. We also need some<BR>> estimates on how much it will cost to do the essential aspects of our<BR>> move, which I do believe will push over that amount.<BR>> <BR>> From what I hear, these are the main points:<BR>> - Remodel a bathroom<BR>> - Build a kitchen<BR>> - Build partitions<BR>> - Wire electrical<BR>> - Floor<BR>> <BR>> Most of you seem extremely intent on this bathroom. I personally feel<BR>> that it would be nice, but not nearly as essential as some of you<BR>> regard it.<BR>> The kitchen is also something that I feel can be done for less. Yes,<BR>> an electric range/oven, a fridge, counters and cabinets are needed.<BR>> None of that would require a contractor or a permit.<BR>> As for the sink, in my opinion it's a project that I would postpone.<BR>> There is one there, and while it is entirely less than ideal for a<BR>> kitchen, it does have running water and a drain. Also, the lack of a<BR>> hot water heater is a definite acknowledged issue, and if we decide we<BR>> need one, an electric one will be required.<BR>> <BR>> As for the partitions... I definitely see the need for some. But I'm<BR>> not as convinced this needs to be done instantly, or at least, all of<BR>> them. I feel that much of it could be done at a later point --<BR>> perhaps even following a fundraiser.<BR>> <BR>> The electrical I am extremely unclear about. Jim has made comments<BR>> that work definitely needs to be done, and I trust him on that. But I<BR>> also wonder how urgent parts of it are -- the power that runs along<BR>> the ceiling covers the majority of the space and worked for quite a<BR>> few sewing machines. Could this not work for our purposes, at least<BR>> until we move on better footing?<BR>> <BR>> The floor I do agree needs to be done up-front. Obviously it would be<BR>> extremely difficult and annoying to work with this in an occupied<BR>> space.<BR>> But people have very differing views on what is needed to done.<BR>> Refinishing it would prove quite expensive I think (the sealer gets<BR>> very expensive, and the smell would stay for weeks). I'm in the<BR>> opinion that a good cleaning would suffice.. one that is funded<BR>> primarily by volunteer work that I am sure we will have.<BR>> <BR>> While I close, I'll acknowledge that many of you don't like the idea<BR>> of sitting in an unfinished space for a little bit. But parts of 83c<BR>> were this way, and realism will need to set in.<BR>> Looking at other spaces, the price range was more often $4.5-5.5k/mo<BR>> for just rent. Yes, the buildout costs would be far less at these<BR>> places. But we wouldn't be able to afford the rent. Additionally,<BR>> over the term of the lease, we'd spend more.<BR>> Also, keep in mind how crazy we are... I think we need to be happy we<BR>> found a landlord crazier than we are to think it's a good idea to rent<BR>> to us :)<BR>> <BR>> Finally, I will point out that our income will increase as we have a<BR>> new space. At least some of the doubles will come through, I'm sure,<BR>> and more members will be attracted. The ability to have fundraising<BR>> events becomes real, and we'll actually be able to get work done at<BR>> the space.<BR>> But the opposite side to that is that we are bursting at the seams at<BR>> 83c. We routinely have a severe excess of people, and tensions are<BR>> starting to rise.. I not only fear that our membership will not<BR>> increase much beyond its current level, but that people will start to<BR>> leave. Already, many great people are avoiding the space because it's<BR>> unmanageable. I personally encourage us to work hard on numbers, and<BR>> then do our best to approve this place if it's at all possible.<BR>> I fear we'll die slowly if not, or at least have our own recession.<BR>> <BR>> Anyway, my rather long 2 cents...<BR>> <BR>> Jeffrey<BR>> <BR>> On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 3:05 PM, aestetix aestetix<aestetix@gmail.com> wrote:<BR>> > Matt,<BR>> ><BR>> > You raise some very valid concerns.<BR>> ><BR>> > Perhaps the best way to address this is to list out each of your concerns so<BR>> > they can be addressed individually. This will also tend some transparency to<BR>> > the process, and help others to better understand where you are coming from,<BR>> > and help us all work together.<BR>> ><BR>> > aestetix<BR>> ><BR>> > On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 3:00 PM, Mitch Altman <maltman23@hotmail.com> wrote:<BR>> >><BR>> >> I also have concerns about budget. At the moment we do not have enough<BR>> >> money in the bank to go forward with a move to 2169 Mission that includes<BR>> >> the required build-up. We will need to do some fund-raising. How much<BR>> >> fund-raising depends on a budget. If a few people can get together and<BR>> >> create a realistic (as best as possible) budget, then we can raise the<BR>> >> required funds.<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >> At the moment we have $21,000 in the bank.<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >> Any fund-raising will need to keep in mind that we need to have 3 months<BR>> >> of operating expenses in the bank. Currently (at 83C Wiese, with $1975/mo<BR>> >> rent) our operating expenses have averaged $3900/month.<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >> Mitch.<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >> ------------------------<BR>> >><BR>> >> > From: matt@peterson.org<BR>> >> > To: adi@hexapodia.org<BR>> >> > Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:41:07 -0700<BR>> >> > CC: noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net<BR>> >> > Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] 2169 Mission status<BR>> >> ><BR>> >> > Ok, my big concern is the budget. I hate to come across as the party<BR>> >> > pooper here. It's well known that house remodels and upgrades run<BR>> >> > over budget, particularly for newbies in this realm - I could only<BR>> >> > imagine commercial refurbs requiring even more knowledge. Do we have<BR>> >> > members or friends with intimate knowledge of the permitting process,<BR>> >> > contractor negotiation, parts sourcing, etc (ideally ones willing to<BR>> >> > step up and lead this)? Sai had valid points in this realm at the<BR>> >> > last meeting, however the overall excitement overruled him repeatedly<BR>> >> > from diving into this.<BR>> >> ><BR>> >> > I plan to block unless a detailed budget is published and agreed<BR>> >> > upon. Our treasurer should be presenting data that shows our /<BR>> >> > existing/ membership base allows us to afford this space for some time<BR>> >> > PLUS additional surplus from the recent fundraising round. Let's get<BR>> >> > actual quotes from contractors. Hand waving and "just trust us" isn't<BR>> >> > going to fly.<BR>> >> ><BR>> >> > In terms of the funds earmarked for the new space, to what extent do<BR>> >> > we limit purchases and upgrades? I see the most critical items being:<BR>> >> > bathroom(s)/shower, electrical, walls, kitchen and other common shared<BR>> >> > infrastructure. These are meant to meet ADA, building code<BR>> >> > worthiness, general safety and comfort requirements. What happens<BR>> >> > when funds are spent, on say on a meat-only storage freezer, color<BR>> >> > photo processing equipment or an industrial CNC machines (all<BR>> >> > hypothetical examples) - yielding gear that isn't "new space"<BR>> >> > specific; are funders Ok with these type of purchases?<BR>> >> ><BR>> >> > Again, not trying to come off as the nay-sayer here but we're flying<BR>> >> > blind from what I can gather currently. I'm very excited about the<BR>> >> > new space itself, the breathing room we'll have and fun network<BR>> >> > upgrades that will follow. Let's just be up front and realistic about<BR>> >> > the costs.<BR>> >> ><BR>> >> > --Matt<BR>> >> ><BR>> >> > On Jul 19, 2009, at 7:52 PM, Andy Isaacson wrote:<BR>> >> > ><BR>> >> > > The landlords apparently aren't interested in doing any work up-front,<BR>> >> > > so we'd be doing any work on our own dime and on our own time. We<BR>> >> > > requested that they replace the smaller (front) bathroom with a larger<BR>> >> > > bathroom (leaving the current rear bathroom in its current state) and<BR>> >> > > they declined.<BR>> >> > _______________________________________________<BR>> >> > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<BR>> >> > Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net<BR>> >> > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss<BR>> >><BR>> >> _______________________________________________<BR>> >> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<BR>> >> Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net<BR>> >> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss<BR>> >><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> > _______________________________________________<BR>> > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<BR>> > Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net<BR>> > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR></body>
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