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<style> BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; }</style>Hello, I have added the [drama] tag to this thread. Please keep the tag in future replies. For more info see <br>
<br>
https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Drama<br>
Thanks for helping me sort my inbox!<br>
--D<br>
<br>
<span style="font-weight: bold;">On Sun 29/11/09 3:38 PM , "jim" jim@well.com sent:<br>
</span><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(245, 245, 245); margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; padding-right: 0px;"><br>
christie, do i correctly read an argumentative tone <br>
in your response? <br>
i was not discussing consensus nor how we as a group <br>
might go about accepting a 501(c)3 donation. as to my <br>
contributions to the thread, the subject might better <br>
be changed to something like "what kinds of topics <br>
demand open information." note i have not suggested any <br>
standards, only something that might be characterized <br>
as policy or "good form". i wrote definitions hoping <br>
just to be clear as to my intent (i've repeatedly <br>
gotten the sense that people were not responding to <br>
what i was trying to get across). <br>
<br>
i have no idea what are the facts of any possible deal <br>
with monkeybrains or the city, just that... <br>
<br>
...if deals are in the planning stages, and if the deals <br>
may have an effect on noisebridge as a whole, then before <br>
action is taken it seems right to me that people open up <br>
and share the details with any of us who might be <br>
interested. that's the only point i've been trying to <br>
make. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Sun, 2009-11-29 at 14:55 -0800, Christie Dudley wrote:<br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> I changed the subject line to reflect the true nature of this</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> discussion because we've extended well beyond the realm of anything</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> that's listed in there.</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> </span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> Comments interpsersed.</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> --- </span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> Why I take the road less traveled? Oh, that's easy. I'm</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> claustrophobic.</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> </span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> </span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 2:23 PM, jim <<a href="javascript:top.opencompose('jim@well.com','','','')">jim@well.com</a>> wrote:</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> my comments interspersed...</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> JS: seems worthy of examination. my opinion:</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> people inviting their friends to join NB seems not a case of</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> "in</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> the name of noisebridge". setting up a partnership or customer</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> relation with another entity does. (just for clarity, anything</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> a</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> member does to hack something, perform, create, etc., is done</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> personally; NB provides a venue in which people can do their</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> things.)</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> </span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> </span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> How about interacting with the press? What about representing</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> Noisebridge in a formal context such as at events or conventions?</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> These are far more important to the well-being of Noisebridge than</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> committing to pay the power bill. Although we have been pretty lax by</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> your standards in discussing trash service. Do we really need to have</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> a consensus vote and hash that out at meetings? I mean, I never even</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> heard a competing bid.</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> </span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> That being said, for the monkeybrains service we have committed to</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> nothing. I don't think it's sinking in with most people that we have</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> not agreed to do, pay, or be anything FOR Monkeybrains. This is</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> neither a partnership nor a customer relationship. They're simply</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> giving us bandwidth. Andy donated the gear. (Thanks Andy!) No</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> agreement == no commitment. So this situation would not apply even by</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> your own criteria.</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> </span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> </span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> JS: accepting a donation may or may not be "in the name of</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> noisebridge". people bring by tools, equipment, materials,</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> and general crap. mostly these are just dumped in the space,</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> maybe neatly. these are not "in the name of" nor "on behalf</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> of" noisebridge in any significant sense.</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> Note that as NB is a 501(c)3 corporation, in the case of</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> donations by parties declaring their donations as 501(c)3</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> deductions on their tax statements, NB is bound by some</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> restrictions as to what we can do with the donations: we</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> can't just sell them, nor can we turn them over to one or</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> more members as their new personal toys. it's unlikely</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> but possible that the IRS or some other entity may want to</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> audit the donors and verify by inspection that NB has not</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> violated our legal restraints. in the case that NB no longer</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> wants a donation, dispersal must be done within legal bounds.</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> there may be costs NB has to incur, for example for some</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> donation that requires a lot of power to run, or something</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> that must have natural gas (NB may have to incur costs of</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> running gas lines), or there may be known safety hazards</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> that require some kind of improvement or that are disallowed</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> by the coding ordinances for this building....</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> </span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> You raise all very good points here. It's important for someone who</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> brings something into the space to recognize how it will impact</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> everyone else in the space. I disagree that it's necessary to send</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> every donation to consensus to determine this. I expect each person</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> who considers bringing something into the space to be excellent and</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> consider the impact they have on the other members and guests. </span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> </span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> Take the DIYBio fridge for example. Assume it was donated. It was</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> brought into the space without consideration for how it would impact</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> the space. We did not have room for it, and there was no</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> understanding of what it was and why it was in the middle of the</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> space. It impacted other people, particularly those who's shelves it</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> blocked.</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> </span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> JS: i don't think we're so bad. we've had some email</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> wildfires,</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> but seems to me things have simmered down reasonably well in</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> previous cases, and tho' a lot of us get bored or frustrated</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> with the volume, the air does get a good clearing.</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> </span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> I have to say I disagree here. There are a number of good projects</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> that came and went because of silly speculation over how they impacted</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> the space. Take Deep Crack, for example. This is a monumental</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> historical piece of hardware in the hacking world that members wanted</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> to run a workshop with. Although it posed no real threat to anyone,</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> the donation was withdrawn because of continued speculation over</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> imagined hazards.</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> </span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> Summary: "in the name of noisebridge" means noisebridge incurs</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> some legal or financial other formal obligation.</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> "on behalf of noisebridge" means that noisebridge incurs some</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> spatial or labor or cost responsibility.</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> if the implications of members' actions have insignificant</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> affect in either regard, we're an anarchistic do-ocracy that</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> deprecates labels.</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> </span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> my opinion, of course.</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> </span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> Wow, this is getting awfully lawyerly. Are you sure we need to get</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> things nailed down to that level of detail and verbiage? It'll all be</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> lost in a year once we forget this discussion unless we have some sort</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> of enforcement regime, which I'm completely opposed to.</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> </span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> I'd rather just people be excellent to each other, which means being</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> mindful of their impact on others in the space.</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> </span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> Oh, and by the way, as a matter of law, the only people who can enter</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> Noisebridge into any sort of a legally binding thing are officers (not</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> directors) so that's Jake, Jeffrey and Seth. Unless one of these</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> people have to be involved in order to commit us to anything.</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> </span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> Christie</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">> </span><br>
<br>
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