I think by "silo", what jim and others who have mentioned this mean (correct me if I'm wrong) is that all the content you add to the site is held outside of your control. You are entirely reliant on the site owners to do things like make sure the data is safe and secure as well as accessible. There's no apparent interface or migration path if the business starts flaking out. (See Tribe.net as an example, although they're obviously getting better.)<div>
<br></div><div>For example, one of the things that we discussed when we started using Google calendar for scheduling stuff is "what happens if we decide to start hosting our own calendar instead?" This application has an "export" feature where we can just dump it into a standard format output and upload it to our own app once we get that up and running. Oh, and as an aside to this aside... Using the calendar in addition to the events page has caused more than a few problems, since they're not synced and few people check both.</div>
<div><br></div><div>As a group of "hackers" we're keenly aware of the threats to control and privacy that go on out there. Not just from other hackers, but from government type organizations who may decide us to be a threat somehow. There's a lot of history there. To allow other organizations control (i.e. the ability to censor) without transparency (i.e. our ability to know that they're doing it) .<br>
<div><br></div><div>I dunno if you've read through the Terms of Service for that site, although I somehow doubt it. It's a bit of a long one with 33 sections that cover everything from ownership of content to member data collections by site owners. It's not a particularly bad policy and it's clear they're trying to be reasonable, but there are a few things (like permanent, perpetual, irrevocable, free license to all your IP) that are a bit uncomfortable.</div>
<div><br></div><div>We think about these things and invite you to as well.</div><div><br></div><div>Christie<br clear="all">_______<br>Getting to the bottom of the hill is convenient. The view from the top of the hill is stunning. Where would you choose to live?<br>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Noise Bridge <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:noisebridgening@gmail.com">noisebridgening@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
thanks for the reply, Jim.<br>
<br>
you're right. the "sales pitch" way i went about presenting this might
not have been the best way to present something i made to people. it
was too formal i think. i guess i was just so nervous about putting it
out there that i thought that maybe if i was comprehensive enough with
peoples concerns and was able to communicate the benefits of the medium
along side the current systems that people might take to it easier. i
do see now how that, coupled with my chosen anonymity, my stiff 'pitch'
would make people a bit iffy about using the ning. Still, i would have
hoped people would at least give it a chance and try using it just a
little before completely bashing the mere idea into the ground. Part of
what i thought made a do-ocracy work wasn't just taking the initiative
but by learning by doing as well.<br>
<br>
I'm not sure what you mean by the 'silo' aspect of this idea though. if
you mean 'everyone get in here and don't use the other stuff we already
have' i'm vehemently opposed to that. this was made with the mailing
list, IRC, and wiki in mind and is supposed to be used in parallel with
those things (if you noticed i added a few links on the site that point to relevant info on the wiki). I fully encourage cross-pollination of ideas between the
systems. the more places an idea is presented, the more exposure it can
get, and the more input you might receive. it wouldn't be hard to submit an
idea to both the discussion mailing list AND the ning and refer to them
both for help. I know from experience this is not only possible, not
not as hard to follow as it might sound. I've participated in a few
Alternate Reality Games and there have been times where two forums are
working on the same puzzles. sometimes one forum solves it before the
other, or another forum notices something the other didn't, and they
share the information. the forums, created separately and sometimes
without the knowledge of the other in the beginning, will eventually
combine forces and quote important info between mediums to make sure
everyone is on track and playing the game well. I have do doubt this
could work just as well with the ning and the mailing list/IRC/wiki. i
think if an idea has enough people interested in it it'll be a small
matter to pay attention to more than one threads of discussion.<br>
<br>
if you don't mean it that way... well my opinion still stands but i'll
need a better definition from you to understand your concern :)<div><div></div><div class="h5"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 8:40 AM, jim <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jim@well.com" target="_blank">jim@well.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left:1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
seems to me the [drama] tag isn't much appropriate.<br>
yes, these long-winded discussions are often packed<br>
with passion, but my take is that air is being cleared,<br>
tho'ts and concepts exercised and exposed to stresses,<br>
i.e. such email firestorms have a good purpose.<br>
in this case, seems to me a big part of the topic<br>
results from the "sales pitch" aspect of anon's<br>
approach.<br>
there is also the "silo" aspect to committing to a<br>
new system (not sure to what extent that's a problem<br>
for NB folks, but there is the attendant idea that<br>
whatever is expressed in such an external system may<br>
at some point incorrectly reflect noisebridge).<br>
speaking for myself alone, i wish mr. anon would<br>
just use it and let us know from time to time that<br>
it's updated so we can check it out if we so choose.<br>
also, to repeat myself, my preference is to use<br>
open source software to implement such a service.<br>
note i have an aversion to enterprise services with<br>
four-letter words that end with "ing".<br>
<div><div></div><div><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Thu, 2009-12-24 at 04:50 -0800, Christie Dudley wrote:<br>
> [For those who are following along at home, I am quite serious about<br>
> the drama tag in this email. I'm feeling snarky today. But hopefully<br>
> it'll prove entertaining. Thanks David Fine for such a great idea!]<br>
><br>
> Wow, dude. You seriously aren't getting it.<br>
><br>
> On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 3:16 AM, Noise Bridge<br>
> <<a href="mailto:noisebridgening@gmail.com" target="_blank">noisebridgening@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> Re 1) excuse me? 'one of us'? sorry but there IS no 'one of<br>
> us'. There's just EVERYONE. sorry if you mistook NB as a club<br>
> house but that's not how things work.<br>
> anyone can come in and do anything they want. no one should<br>
> have to be 'established' or something to present an idea.<br>
><br>
> Thanks for letting me know how the organization I am a member of<br>
> works. I was previously unaware that there was no usual way of doing<br>
> things, nor membership process. I guess we've all been wasting our<br>
> time. I suppose I should just stop paying my dues right now because<br>
> it's about everyone and not about some kind of elite club.<br>
><br>
><br>
> because it honestly doesn't matter in the least who i am. it<br>
> doesn't matter who made it. what matters is what's done with<br>
> it. i really didn't think people would be so paranoid about<br>
> such a non issue.<br>
><br>
> While I agree that good ideas can come from any quarter, we have an<br>
> almost continuous stream of people coming in who don't understand how<br>
> we operate and what works and what doesn't trying to push this, that<br>
> or another idea. Many of them are even better informed than you, and<br>
> trying to address real problems rather than trying to invent them.<br>
> I'm trying to do you a favor here in suggesting you either take your<br>
> ideas elsewhere or try to get to know us better before trying to shove<br>
> them down our throat.<br>
><br>
> I heartily encourage you to hunt down the board members like the dogs<br>
> they are. I suggest Shannon, as he's best at this sort of thing.<br>
> (*evil grin*) I'm not sure what kind of admin you're looking for,<br>
> though. I think the sysadmin group meets on Tuesdays and Fridays, but<br>
> I don't see what kind of relevance that has here.<br>
><br>
> Re 2) & 3) check the archives? you mean download two years<br>
> worth of mailing list logs and word find 'forum' until i come<br>
> to the right thread granted that i'm even in the right mailing<br>
> list to begin with? boy a search function would be mighty<br>
> helpful right now. i'm sorry but this all just seems like a<br>
> lot of talk and not a whole lot of do.<br>
><br>
> See above discussion on what's gone before and what's already been<br>
> tried. Pardon me if I'm a bit jaded after having heard similar<br>
> suggestions, pleas, or demands (and frankly yours sounds a whole lot<br>
> like a demand) from 20 or 30 people before you. Your approach isn't<br>
> even really that original. It's not our fault that you don't seem to<br>
> care about who you're talking to enough to make a little effort to get<br>
> to know them.<br>
><br>
> "I propose we form a committee to determine whether or not we<br>
> should think about implementing this system or a variation<br>
> thereof. But first we should vote on whether or not we should<br>
> even do THAT."<br>
><br>
> Dude! We don't even vote around here. You should at least get that<br>
> bit right. If you feel so strongly about it, just do it and stop<br>
> screaming about it. Have you ever heard the term doocracy? You<br>
> should look it up. Maybe you might learn something.<br>
><br>
> "Can't someone just make it and then we can figure out if we<br>
> like it or not after trying it?"<br>
> "no. we're going to talk about it at length."<br>
><br>
> Why are you wasting your breath here? You're someone, right? Why are<br>
> you talking about it at so much length?<br>
><br>
> Christie<br>
> _______<br>
> Getting to the bottom of the hill is convenient. The view from the top<br>
> of the hill is stunning. Where would you choose to live?<br>
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