<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:bookman old style,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt"><div><br></div><div style="font-family: bookman old style,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Albert Sweigart <asweigart@gmail.com><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Frantisek Apfelbeck <algoldor@yahoo.com><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wed, November 17, 2010 3:03:51 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Fwd: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] [drama] Frantisek is going to stop living at Noisebridge starting tonight.<br></font><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: "Frantisek Apfelbeck" <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:algoldor@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:algoldor@yahoo.com">algoldor@yahoo.com</a>><br>Date: Nov 17, 2010 2:31 PM<br>Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] [drama] Frantisek is going to stop living at Noisebridge starting tonight.<br>
To: "Albert Sweigart" <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:asweigart@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:asweigart@gmail.com">asweigart@gmail.com</a>><br><br>Just few notes.<br>
<br>
My name is in the headline therefore:<br>
<br>
- I've promised not to sleep at Noisebridge, confirmed, done.<br>
- I did live at Noisebridge, I live at Noisebridge and I certainly hope to do so<br>
in the future, I've defined that already before.<br>
- the major thing what brought this issue up was the last week when I had to<br>
prepare for potentially quick leave of the country and I was around several<br>
nights in one go, otherwise I'm quite pretty positive this issue would not come<br>
up because I went through that with several "well respected" members in the past<br>
and they left it in the "gray area" knowing that there are many people who do<br>
not really object and several who are happy that I'm around place from various<br>
reasons no matter what (without any feelings it has advantages and disadvantages<br>
as anything)<br>
- there is a quiet but numerous camp of people who thinks that crashing at<br>
Noisebridge is fine, time period is questionable within this group but they do<br>
not want to "restrict" staying at Noisebridge over the night, it's clear from<br>
any discussion in past few months on the subject<br>
- at the end of the yesterday meeting it was decided like many times before that<br>
it's not OK to sleep at Noisebridge you should not do it at any case and still<br>
you can crash here ==> so nothing changed as expected, however again, I'm out of<br>
this personally with or without place to stay because sleeping at Noisebridge<br>
was never of major importance to me, it came handy sometimes but that is all,<br>
not necessity<br>
- concerning cleanliness, well since I'm around I'm keeping kitchen clean as<br>
much as I can and in the last weeks or months the back area with occasional trip<br>
in to the front. I have thanked numerous times to the people helping to keep the<br>
place clean Al, Miloh, Mike, Andy and several others. Unfortunately if I stop<br>
cleaning the back on regular bases it goes downhill way to fast and we should<br>
try to find some long term solution how to sort that out<br>
- if anyone wants to watch movie, do metal work or whatever during the night I<br>
did not care. I was so tired most of the time, that I close my eyes and<br>
especially thanks to Mitch's sleeping mask I was gone no matter what<br>
- I did not really sacrificed by cleaning or "organizing Noisebridge" , I just<br>
did what I do if I'm around some place for a while. I do what I believe that I<br>
should be doing and I do it as well as I can, failing sometimes but I'm on the<br>
road. I deeply dislike pretending something, it may be a block I do not know, I<br>
just do not like to pretend. So what I did I did and if I'm gone tomorrow it's<br>
not going to change anything because it was done in a free will and I've<br>
actually enjoyed most of my endeavors at Noisebridge and their impact on the<br>
place and people.<br>
Based on another of Al's emails I also do wonder where the things went wrong and<br>
what to do with that, that is my major concern. I really do not think that the<br>
major problem is someone sleeping or not in the space, it's something else,<br>
something more complex but I do not know what. What I've observed many times<br>
before was how the new members were shining , working on many cool projects,<br>
making fund rising efforts happen etc. and in two three months they would be<br>
gone. They did not moved geographically away, they did not get married, they did<br>
not get a new job they just stopped being around and personally I like many of<br>
these people, they are cool but they are not really around any more or just very<br>
occasionally. Maybe trying to talk to them would be first step to find out what<br>
is the really problem because I honestly do not think that my stay in the place<br>
had really significant impact on our current negative situation, that is my<br>
opinion. By the way I owe my dues for the last month, I hope to pay it asap.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Well now I know for the first time how it feels to be a major "hot spot" of<br>
Noisebridge "DRAMA" and one thing what I can say is that it's fucking waste of<br>
time ... Otherwise do not worry, I can take a plenty of heat. I just now<br>
remember waking up in the middle of the night in Nicaragua, with six guys with<br>
machetes around me asking rather harshly if I can switch off my head torch. So<br>
it is just that my sense of DRAMA has a bit different dimension.<br>
<br>
See you around,<br>
<br>
Frantisek<br>
<div class="elided-text"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----- Original Message ----<br>
From: Albert Sweigart <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:asweigart@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:asweigart@gmail.com">asweigart@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: noisebridge-discuss <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a>><br>
Sent: Wed, November 17, 2010 1:35:06 PM<br>
Subject: [Noisebridge-discuss] [drama] Frantisek is going to stop living at<br>
Noisebridge starting tonight.<br>
<br>
> I did. I was being facetious. But isn't that what is being said? Isn't that<br>
>what he is being called?<br>
<br>
No. In fact, everyone is going out of their way to point out that<br>
Frantisek is helpful and friendly. No one is calling him a "fucking<br>
bum" (even in jest), and bringing that up can escalate arguments on<br>
the list since it can easily be construed that you are accusing people<br>
who have a problem with people living at Noisebridge of hurtful<br>
name-calling.<br>
<br>
I wrote my original email very carefully, because I know how easy it<br>
can be to misinterpret text. I want to keep the discussion calm and<br>
constructive, so I'd like to ask everyone read this email carefully. I<br>
will try to answer each of Corey's questions.<br>
<br>
> My point being, obviously this guy is working very hard and is an active<br>
> member of the community, paying or not. He's running projects, keeping them<br>
> clean, keeping the place clean, he's not disturbing anyone<br>
<br>
Frantisek has been living at Noisebridge for months. The space has not<br>
always been clean. Frantisek *does* help out with the cleaning, but I<br>
think it gives the wrong idea that Noisebridge is well-organized and<br>
tidy because of his sole efforts. Lots of different people help out<br>
with the cleaning.<br>
<br>
> It's the beef that he is setting a bad example? Is the fear that NB is<br>
> suddenly going to be inundated with people that follow in his foot steps:<br>
> being overly nice, doing good work, hacking on cool shit, and then crashing<br>
> on a couch?<br>
<br>
I know this is a sardonic question, but: No, the beef has always been<br>
with people living (not just occasionally sleeping) at Noisebridge<br>
fully knowing the community disapproves of it, and keeping it secret<br>
from the general community because they know they would be forced to<br>
stop. Again, it is not that he's been "crashing on a couch" but that<br>
he has been using the tea room as a bedroom to live at Noisebridge.<br>
<br>
> It just seems to me Frantisek is a scape goat and that the anger over<br>
> Llama<br>
<br>
This is a red herring. That Llama guy was outright disruptive and<br>
quickly told to leave Noisebridge and from my view its been forgotten.<br>
The community being against purposefully spending the night and living<br>
at Noisebridge existed before the whole Llama thing. Llama wasn't even<br>
mentioned at last night's meeting or on this email thread until you<br>
just now brought it up.<br>
<br>
> Is it habitual? How does that matter?<br>
><br>
> How do you run a 24 hour hacker space, then put limits on how long a person<br>
> stays there?<br>
<br>
Michael Kahn and others come to Noisebridge every day for hours at a<br>
time. There is no problem with the amount of time they spend at<br>
Noisebridge. There isn't a problem if you are up all night working on<br>
projects until 7 in the morning. The problem is using Noisebridge as a<br>
your personal home.<br>
<br>
We do it by coming together as a community and having a discussion<br>
about to see how everyone feels, and then trying to sort out what is<br>
acceptable behavior. That is how we put the "no living" limit in.<br>
<br>
> Is it theft for him to not pay rent, here? Is it theft that people running<br>
> a legitimate business and making profits off of work done here aren't also<br>
> paying rent?<br>
<br>
No, it is not theft for him to not pay rent. However it does change<br>
the dynamics of the space, because it can make it seem like instead of<br>
a public workspace, it can make people feel they are being invasive in<br>
a person's private home. Even though someone is perfectly justified in<br>
working and making noise at night, basic politeness would make them<br>
hesitate to do so when someone is sleeping in what is their home. This<br>
imposition isn't fair, especially since living at Noisebridge has<br>
never been a publicly advertised option available to everyone. Instead<br>
it was only available to someone who ignores the community's norms and<br>
does it in secret.<br>
<br>
> Is it a problem, legally? I think that is the only valid concern.<br>
<br>
Eh. Possibly. It was discussed at the meeting and in the thread. I<br>
think most people can agree this may be a significant reason, but it's<br>
not anywhere near the most significant.<br>
<br>
> See, normally I avoid drama as much as possible. I mean, I try not to step<br>
> in it...I'm always watching my feet to make sure I don't end up with sticky,<br>
> stinky, festering drama on my shoes...<br>
><br>
> ...but now I am jumping in head first.<br>
<br>
Please don't purposefully escalate drama at Noisebridge, even<br>
jokingly. It puts other people on the defensive and then they start to<br>
escalate. Let's play it cool.<br>
<br>
> What is going on here is, a really nice guy is being publicly (and pubicly)<br>
> cock punched, repeatedly, over his reliance on a community he contributes<br>
> to...<br>
<br>
No, Frantisek is not being repeatedly cock punched. His character is<br>
being repeatedly upheld through all of this. He's a nice guy and makes<br>
contributions, and nobody wants any sort of punishment or barring or<br>
anything over this. He just can't live at Noisebridge, following the<br>
same standard that everyone else adheres to.<br>
<br>
> When you sacrifice so much for a community, it is not only natural, but<br>
> necessary to use that community to fulfil some of the needs displaced by the<br>
> sacrifice.<br>
<br>
That isn't a sacrifice if you expect something in return, it's a<br>
purchase. And generally this sort of "purchase" shouldn't be done in<br>
secret so you can escape disapproval by the community. Many people<br>
clean up and help out at Noisebridge. But they don't get a privilege<br>
to misuse the space because of it.<br>
<br>
> Maybe that sacrifice is misplaced and undesired. I am sure we've all done<br>
> that...should we all be publicly bashed over it?<br>
<br>
I brought it up in front of the community because my personal efforts<br>
to resolve it privately weren't working and wouldn't change anything.<br>
I didn't go by rumors, I personally confirmed that Frantisek was<br>
repeatedly sleeping at the space and kept his personal artifacts here,<br>
and also talked to him about it to get his side of the story before<br>
emailing the list.<br>
<br>
I emailed the list, carefully explained that I did not want Frantisek<br>
kicked out or condemned. Now he's been offered an apartment for a<br>
month by another member, Noisebridge doesn't have someone living in<br>
the space, and the problem was solved in a single day.<br>
<br>
>> i find that not taking things seriously generally is<br>
>> freeing, often with a clarifying effect.<br>
><br>
> When the thread is "[name of person] is [offending action]" it is hardly<br>
> general.<br>
<br>
The issue of people sleeping at Noisebridge has been brought up<br>
before. This was a specific problem dealing with a specific person,<br>
and I wanted to narrow the focus on that so we could have it resolved.<br>
I specifically put names out there because as much as I made clear<br>
that this is not a condemnation, I did not want tiptoe on the issue.<br>
<br>
-Al<br>
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