what are the normal procedures for this?<div><br></div><div>--S<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 1:03 PM, jim <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jim@well.com">jim@well.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<br>
you didn't follow the normal procedures; you took action<br>
extraordinarily. by definition that's in the neighborhood<br>
of vigilante action. note that so is putting out a fire.<br>
<div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
On Wed, 2011-02-23 at 12:53 -0800, Albert Sweigart wrote:<br>
> I'd just like to say that last night's meeting was one of the most<br>
> well attended meetings I've seen in quite a while. And I have never<br>
> seen such a diverse and large group of Noisebridge members agree on<br>
> something so consistently. Your idea that this is *anywhere* close to<br>
> "vigilante action" is incorrect.<br>
><br>
> -Al<br>
><br>
> On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 12:43 PM, jim <<a href="mailto:jim@well.com">jim@well.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > i wasn't there and i'm sure lots of other members<br>
> > and regular participants weren't there. i worry that<br>
> > this has been a little too close to vigilante action<br>
> > for my comfort.<br>
> > rachel's initial email somewhat addressed this<br>
> > discomfort in asking that those of us who were not<br>
> > there trust the action at least until we see the<br>
> > "evidence", i.e. basis for this drastic action. okay,<br>
> > i'll suspend my alarm for a little bit, but the burden<br>
> > is on you all who took the action.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > On Wed, 2011-02-23 at 10:02 -0800, Albert Sweigart wrote:<br>
> >> I would also like note that this was discuss for a couple hours last<br>
> >> night at the weekly meeting. Lots of people from all over the spectrum<br>
> >> of "what Noisebridge ought to be" were there, and EVERY SINGLE PERSON<br>
> >> supported barring Patrick from coming back to the space.<br>
> >><br>
> >> In Patrick-style bullet points:<br>
> >><br>
> >> * This isn't about his personality quirks or obnoxious mailing list<br>
> >> posts, it's about him sexually harassing people.<br>
> >> * He's harassed multiple people.<br>
> >> * He refuses to talk with others about it, change his behavior, or<br>
> >> even admit that he's done anything wrong or apologize.<br>
> >> * It's to the point where multiple women feel uncomfortable enough<br>
> >> that they would avoid Noisebridge if Patrick could still come.<br>
> >> * This is exactly the situation that calls for banning from ever<br>
> >> physically entering the space again.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Also, he's stolen our printer. He clearly said he donated it (<br>
> >> <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2011-February/020804.html" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2011-February/020804.html</a><br>
> >> ) but took it back this morning when he was told he couldn't come back<br>
> >> into the space.<br>
> >><br>
> >> -Al<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 9:26 AM, rachel lyra hospodar<br>
> >> <<a href="mailto:rachel@mediumreality.com">rachel@mediumreality.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> >> > hooray! well-put, VonGuard. I will chime in to say that while people<br>
> >> > must trust that our doocratic decision was made in good faith, we did<br>
> >> > not yet consense on banning patrick because of how our consensus process<br>
> >> > works - everyone will have a chance to view the evidence and decide for<br>
> >> > themselves.<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > There is evidence. This is not a witch hunt.<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > We are viscerally and hugely concerned for the safety and well-being of<br>
> >> > the vast majority of our users, and feel that this negative person's<br>
> >> > behavior has passed beyond something that we can influence and/or help<br>
> >> > to improve.<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > Noisebridge exists to provide a safe space to hack, not as a place to<br>
> >> > help those who behave reprehensibly to improve themselves. We aren't<br>
> >> > banning him from humanity, just our workshop.<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > R.<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > On 2/23/2011 9:04 AM, VonGuard wrote:<br>
> >> >> So, I just wanted to nip this in the bud: We are all very appreciative of<br>
> >> >> advice from newcomers, but if you are watching all this Patrick Keys drama<br>
> >> >> from the outside, and you think to yourself "Hey, that's some very<br>
> >> >> unexcellent behavior towards Patrick!" I ask you to stop and think for a<br>
> >> >> moment.<br>
> >> >><br>
> >> >> Noisebridge is a super accepting space. It was only after tremendous<br>
> >> >> discussion, debate, and evidence gathering that we decided to ban him. Until<br>
> >> >> the next official meeting, most of you are just going to have to trust that<br>
> >> >> we have made the best decision for Noisebridge here. That is why so many<br>
> >> >> names were appended to the bottom of that email. This was to say "We are<br>
> >> >> signing to say this is legitimate, and that this action needs to be taken."<br>
> >> >><br>
> >> >> This was actually never about personality, or even about the mailing list.<br>
> >> >> This was about Patrick making women at Noisebridge feel unsafe. This was not<br>
> >> >> done based on any form of speculation or jumping to conclusions. This was<br>
> >> >> done after a careful, considered process where it was decided that not<br>
> >> >> banning Patrick was the same thing as banning a number of women who would no<br>
> >> >> longer come to Noisebridge because of his presence and his unwanted<br>
> >> >> attentions, and his stalking behavior.<br>
> >> >><br>
> >> >> Noisebridge has plenty of socially awkward geeks. We all know that if yer a<br>
> >> >> chick at Noisebridge, someone might stare at your boobs. Awkward though this<br>
> >> >> is, it's actually OK. Sure, it's not the most polite thing to do, but it's<br>
> >> >> harmless. Women and men at Noisebridge are still perfectly free to behave<br>
> >> >> like women and men. This is very far from what is taking place here.<br>
> >> >> Patrick's behavior was well over the line of acceptable.<br>
> >> >><br>
> >> >> This was not a witch hunt. This is not a precedent for banning annoying or<br>
> >> >> creepy people. This was about physical safety in and outside of the space<br>
> >> >> for ladies with whom Patrick had crossed the line, and continued to cross<br>
> >> >> the line after being told to stop.<br>
> >> >><br>
> >> >> Finally, I will say that the "intervention, mediated talking" route had<br>
> >> >> already been tried with Patrick. If you are interested in reading more about<br>
> >> >> Patrick's complete inability and unwillingness to listen to ANYONE about<br>
> >> >> ANYTHING, there are about 4 months worth of email backlogs in our archives<br>
> >> >> documenting his complete inability to listen and understand people's<br>
> >> >> problems with him. It's a pattern with him.<br>
> >> >><br>
> >> >> This extended to also being unable to accept the word "no!" from women. And<br>
> >> >> that makes me want to do something truly terrible to him. But instead of<br>
> >> >> hurting him or assaulting him online or offline, we all decided to solve<br>
> >> >> this within Noisebridge's processes. Believe me, there are others here who<br>
> >> >> would have done far worse to him given the chance. The man is a menace, and<br>
> >> >> does not even treat women like people. They are sexual objects to him, ones<br>
> >> >> that owe him sexual attentions, in his eyes.<br>
> >> >><br>
> >> >> This is not someone we will ever be allowing back. He is pure fucking scum,<br>
> >> >> and he is absolutely the antithesis of everything Noiserbridge stands for.<br>
> >> >><br>
> >> >> Let it be known: you cannot sexually harass or endanger ANYONE at<br>
> >> >> Noisebridge. You will be banned if you do so and do not correct the behavior<br>
> >> >> when you are told to stop. This is the precedent we're setting. And I think<br>
> >> >> it is a very good one. Everyone should be safe at Noisebridge. And no one<br>
> >> >> should feel unsafe outside of Noisebridge because a person associated with<br>
> >> >> the space is following/harassing them.<br>
> >> >><br>
> >> >> If you are still not convinced, come to the meeting next week. I agree, this<br>
> >> >> is all quite ugly, but at the end of the day, this is 100% Patrick's own<br>
> >> >> fault. Noisebridge remains %99.999 inclusive. But stalkers will NEVER be<br>
> >> >> welcome.<br>
> >> >><br>
> >> >><br>
> >> >><br>
> >> >> On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 6:49 AM, Rikke Rasmussen <<br>
> >> >> <a href="mailto:rikke.c.rasmussen@gmail.com">rikke.c.rasmussen@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> >> >><br>
> >> >>> I know that my being very new at Noisebridge may cause some of you to find<br>
> >> >>> it inappropriate for me to interfere in this matter, but I hope you'll bear<br>
> >> >>> with me and hear me out. I've met Patrick multiple times through<br>
> >> >>> Tastebridge, and know him only as polite, if perhaps a little formal, even<br>
> >> >>> stiff, at times. However, I have never found his behavior untoward in any<br>
> >> >>> way. I will of course read the material available tomorrow, but given the<br>
> >> >>> very rapid development of the situation, I feel like I should add a comment<br>
> >> >>> in his defense immediately - I've witnessed a lynching before and have no<br>
> >> >>> desire to see another.<br>
> >> >>><br>
> >> >>> Exclusion is the worst punishment Noisebridge has because of the no<br>
> >> >>> policies-policy, our equivalent of capital punishment, and I do not feel<br>
> >> >>> that the crime merits this measure. It is as big a deal as the offended<br>
> >> >>> party chooses to make of it, but since this has only been brought out in<br>
> >> >>> public by a flamewar, and not by the person herself, I can't help but feel<br>
> >> >>> that Frantisek may have a point about attempting mediated dialogue first.<br>
> >> >>> More than anything, though, I would like to hear from the female in question<br>
> >> >>> - if you are following this discussion, I would like to know whether you<br>
> >> >>> feel that this is reasonable?<br>
> >> >>><br>
> >> >>> I hope it's clear that I'm trying to pour water, not gasoline, on the fire<br>
> >> >>> here.<br>
> >> >>><br>
> >> >>> /Rikke<br>
> >> >>><br>
> >> >>> _______________________________________________<br>
> >> >>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
> >> >>> <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
> >> >>> <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
> >> >>><br>
> >> >>><br>
> >> >><br>
> >> >><br>
> >> >><br>
> >> >> _______________________________________________<br>
> >> >> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
> >> >> <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
> >> >> <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > _______________________________________________<br>
> >> > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
> >> > <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
> >> > <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
> >> ><br>
> >> _______________________________________________<br>
> >> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
> >> <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
> >> <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
> >><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
><br>
<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Shannon Lee<br>(503) 539-3700<br><br>"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."<br>
</div>