<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 12:02 PM, Jonathan Lassoff <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jof@thejof.com">jof@thejof.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div class="im">On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 6:11 AM, aestetix aestetix <<a href="mailto:aestetix@gmail.com">aestetix@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> So, uh, besides the other privacy concerns... what makes you think that if<br>
> someone will randomly "steal" a laptop, they won't also steal surveillance<br>
> equipment you set up? I imagine there's an off switch somewhere on the<br>
> camera, even if it's a power button, and I also imagine that taping a piece<br>
> of black paper over the camera lens would make any surveillance attempts<br>
> futile. Or, if "these people" are as paranoid as it sounds, what's to stop<br>
> them from clipping the cables connecting things together?<br>
<br>
</div>Absolutely nothing. But at least we can have an image of them doing<br>
just that. If you want to hack on something at 2169, take it apart,<br>
etc I say go for it.<br>
I also see no reason to hide the knowledge of any presence of cameras,<br>
but perhaps we could put them in semi-hidden locations.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>What if the cameras are disconnected and you discover that the person who did it had nothing to do with any of these thefts, and just didn't like being monitored?</div>
<div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div class="im"><br>
> I'm not saying don't do it, because I believe people should do things.<br>
> However, I also believe in watching the watchers, and hackers have a natural<br>
> inclination to question people who tell them what they are "supposed" to do.<br>
> I assume that if you were to install cameras, there would be a clear sign<br>
> indicating where they are and why they are there, and anyone who wanted to<br>
> see how they work, or hack them, would have access to them? Also, do you<br>
> plan on having good explanations for why they are there for new people when<br>
> you point them out on the tour?<br>
<br>
</div>Ugh. The explanations would probably not be so pretty. I don't cherish<br>
the idea of having to describe to a first-time visitor that we<br>
regularly have belligerent strangers visiting, so we put up camera.<br>
However, I think it's just as fine to mention that they're there and<br>
that there are places to go that aren't covered by them.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>And what if you give a tour to a first time visitor, explain the places to go that aren't covered, and a week later that same person decides to steal something and uses the information you've given them to get around the cameras undetected?</div>
<div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<br>
A recourse for getting logs purged is also not unreasonable, IMO.<br>
<div class="im"><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>What makes you think the police would not also want regular access to those logs once they discovered them?</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div class="im">
> I am all in favor of using kindness and communication to thwart people<br>
> behaving badly. I am not in favor of using technical hacks to solve social<br>
> problems.<br>
<br>
</div>Agreed, cameras or locks can only be something to supplement social<br>
pressure against unwanted behavior. It's no panacea.<br>
<div class="im"><br></div></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div class="im">
> With Noisebridge, most people are highly<br>
> technical, so it seems natural to jump to trying a technical solution to<br>
> solve a problem.<br>
<br>
</div>And make no doubt about it, this is what I'm doing of here. I'm not a<br>
super social person, and greeting everyone that shows up isn't high on<br>
my list of things to do. A couple people now and then I would be happy<br>
to greet, but I find more than that just draining and stressful.<br>
<br>
That said, based on some of the history here, it really seems to me<br>
like just greeting and relating social norms to new visitors just<br>
doesn't always work. What do you do if someone comes in who has never<br>
visited before, ignores a greeter, and just starts putting things in<br>
their pockets? I don't think any amount of social pressure will stop a<br>
determined person.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I imagine that if someone is kind enough to be a greeter, they will also be alerted if someone clearly new (IE doesn't know the venue at all) comes in and completely ignores them.</div>
<div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
It's really only in these extreme situations would it have been useful<br>
to have better locks (and social key distribution) and camera to<br>
record their misbehavior to share with the community so people who<br>
weren't around when an incident happened can recognize the perpetrator<br>
in the future.<br>
<div class="im"><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I think we practice this already to some extent by only giving keys to people who we think are awesome. </div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div class="im">
> However, in this case, I don't really see a positive<br>
> outcome from that approach.<br>
<br>
</div>This is where we may disagree, but I'm mailing the idea around to<br>
solicit this kind of feedback. I respect your opinion a lot, Aestetix<br>
-- if your *certain* this can only end badly or would stop you from<br>
coming around, I'd really consider just dropping it.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I think all outcomes are definitely worth exploring, not just those that seem convenient to us :)</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<font color="#888888"><br>
--j<br>
</font></blockquote></div><br>