Yeah, well, I don't think signs do any good, period, I'm just suggesting ways to prevent them from actually making the space a worse place to be.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Al Sweigart <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:asweigart@gmail.com">asweigart@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">It really doesn't matter. The instructional signs get defaced. The<br>
policy-oriented signs get defaced (even the ones that have been<br>
reworded after I talk with others about them.)<br>
<br>
My offer still stands. I'll donate a dollar to Noisebridge each day<br>
the printed signs don't get defaced or torn down. That comes to almost<br>
an extra starving-hacker rate membership.<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
-Al<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 12:50 PM, jim <<a href="mailto:jim@well.com">jim@well.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
> I still think you should define "printed signs" more<br>
> particularly.<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Fri, 2011-07-29 at 11:26 -0700, Al Sweigart wrote:<br>
>> I know that signs getting defaced or torn down is a data point, it's<br>
>> just not a very helpful one. I have no clue who did it or why, so<br>
>> there's no way I can talk to them and work out a change or compromise.<br>
>> And if somebody is just defacing a sign instead of bringing it up with<br>
>> people, they most likely don't _care_ to talk about it or compromise.<br>
>> That's unexcellent behavior that we should change.<br>
>><br>
>> So to encourage people not taking the defacing route, I'm offering to<br>
>> donate a dollar to Noisebridge each day the printed signs go without<br>
>> being defaced or torn down.<br>
>><br>
>> -Al<br>
>><br>
>> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 10:55 AM, jim <<a href="mailto:jim@systemateka.com">jim@systemateka.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > Note Rachel's point that any tagging is a likely data<br>
>> > point. I believe most tagging indicates something, however<br>
>> > obscure.<br>
>> > I'd like to reiterate the idea of clearing an area<br>
>> > around a posted sign and add the notion of having fewer<br>
>> > signs and/or have signs deal with fewer topics.<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > On Fri, 2011-07-29 at 10:48 -0700, Christina Olson wrote:<br>
>> >> Hey kids,<br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> In my discussion with Liz and Danny about signs I did in fact touch<br>
>> >> upon the points that 1. signs get removed or moved ALL THE DAMN TIME<br>
>> >> and 2. no one respects any signage due to the fact that they're not<br>
>> >> clear, not consistent, and just printed paper taped to somewhere.<br>
>> >> We're working on a branded, systemic set of signs that will be<br>
>> >> laminated and nailed/screwed to walls and other things so they cannot<br>
>> >> be easily moved or disregarded. If you'd like to be part of the sign<br>
>> >> development effort please join the soceng mailing list, and speak to<br>
>> >> Liz or myself.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> The soceng meeting will be a day next week that is NOT tuesday, since<br>
>> >> I can't ever make Tuesday anything due to a preexisting regular<br>
>> >> commitment. It will probably be Wednesday or Thursday, I haven't<br>
>> >> decided yet.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> PS: Buying a laminator is hella crazy expensive, like several hundred<br>
>> >> dollars for a shitty personal one and thousands for a good one (I've<br>
>> >> already looked into this multiple times for other reasons, same thing<br>
>> >> with paper cutters and binding machines), so unless someone is<br>
>> >> donating one to the space, we are going to get them printed and<br>
>> >> laminated elsewhere.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 10:41 AM, jim <<a href="mailto:jim@systemateka.com">jim@systemateka.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Thanks lots, Al, for your work.<br>
>> >> Your offer of $1 a day seems to me to need some<br>
>> >> fine-tuning,<br>
>> >> mainly to specify particular signs, not just "the printed<br>
>> >> signs".<br>
>> >> As to tagging, seemingly snarky (gratuitous) additions may<br>
>> >> reflect some reasonable criticism, sometimes a matter of the<br>
>> >> background attitude that the wording and graphic effect of the<br>
>> >> sign presents.<br>
>> >> Maybe give some further thought to the design and wording<br>
>> >> of<br>
>> >> printed signs, including some aspect of printing that presents<br>
>> >> the sign as a finished graphic--while that presents a risk of<br>
>> >> doing extra work that gets trashed (i.e. tagged), a more<br>
>> >> polished<br>
>> >> finish may deter the more genuinely snarky changes.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> On Fri, 2011-07-29 at 10:30 -0700, Al Sweigart wrote:<br>
>> >> > The tagging I've seen haven't really been helpful commentary<br>
>> >> so much<br>
>> >> > as just passive aggressive snarky comments or the sign just<br>
>> >> gets torn<br>
>> >> > down. Either way, it doesn't really facilitate communication<br>
>> >> and<br>
>> >> > discourages people from putting up signs in the first place.<br>
>> >> It's not<br>
>> >> > like the wiki, where you can have a separate talk page and<br>
>> >> undoing<br>
>> >> > edits are trivial.<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > Anyway, my offer still stands. I'll donate a dollar a day to<br>
>> >> > Noisebridge each day the printed signs go without being<br>
>> >> defaced or<br>
>> >> > torn down. I'll occasionally replace signs and start paying<br>
>> >> again if<br>
>> >> > they get tagged up.<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > I'm up for meeting with Liz and Daravinne for brainstorming.<br>
>> >> There's a<br>
>> >> > wiki page up too: <a href="http://nburl.net/signage" target="_blank">nburl.net/signage</a><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > -Al<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 10:10 AM, Danny O'Brien<br>
>> >> <<a href="mailto:danny@spesh.com">danny@spesh.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> >> > > On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 10:06 AM, rachel lyra hospodar<br>
>> >> > > <<a href="mailto:rachelyra@gmail.com">rachelyra@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> >> > >> I think if a sign gets removed or defaced it's often an<br>
>> >> excellent piece of<br>
>> >> > >> feedback from the community about the quality,<br>
>> >> intentions, or placement of<br>
>> >> > >> the sign. Signs I've made have been removed. I try to be<br>
>> >> pragmatic about it<br>
>> >> > >> and take the fact of their removal to be something I can<br>
>> >> improve against.<br>
>> >> > >><br>
>> >> > >> I think we need better signage for a lot of reasons...<br>
>> >> including exit<br>
>> >> > >> signs. Anyone want to start a signage working group with<br>
>> >> me?<br>
>> >> > >><br>
>> >> > ><br>
>> >> > > I think the best place for this would be on the social<br>
>> >> engineering list.<br>
>> >> > ><br>
>> >> <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/socialengineering" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/socialengineering</a><br>
>> >> > ><br>
>> >> > > Me, Liz and Daravinne can't make it to this week's tuesday<br>
>> >> meeting (or<br>
>> >> > > the social engineering meeting before it, so maybe meet up<br>
>> >> before then<br>
>> >> > > to brainstorm on it?)<br>
>> >> > ><br>
>> >> > > d.<br>
>> >> > ><br>
>> >> > >> <a href="http://mediumreality.com" target="_blank">mediumreality.com</a><br>
>> >> > >><br>
>> >> > >> On Jul 29, 2011 10:02 AM, "Danny O'Brien"<br>
>> >> <<a href="mailto:danny@spesh.com">danny@spesh.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> >> > >>> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 9:04 AM, Al Sweigart<br>
>> >> <<a href="mailto:asweigart@gmail.com">asweigart@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> >> > >>>> One of the efforts I want to do to make the space less<br>
>> >> intimidating to<br>
>> >> > >>>> new people is to improve the signage around the space<br>
>> >> to make it more<br>
>> >> > >>>> obvious what things are at NB, where those things are,<br>
>> >> and provide<br>
>> >> > >>>> answers for "what is this thing?" (protip: If the thing<br>
>> >> is glowing<br>
>> >> > >>>> and/or slimy, don't touch it.)<br>
>> >> > >>>><br>
>> >> > >>>> A lot of the signs have been getting tagged up recently<br>
>> >> (if you have a<br>
>> >> > >>>> problem or suggestion with the wording, feel free to<br>
>> >> email me<br>
>> >> > >>>> privately or email the list), so to encourage<br>
>> >> preserving the signs,<br>
>> >> > >>>> I'm going to donate $1 each day the signs go without<br>
>> >> being defaced or<br>
>> >> > >>>> torn down. (If anyone can help with a part of that<br>
>> >> dollar, it'd be<br>
>> >> > >>>> great. $365 a year adds up.)<br>
>> >> > >>>><br>
>> >> > >>><br>
>> >> > >>> Hey Al, I think Daravinne and Liz are already working on<br>
>> >> improving the<br>
>> >> > >>> signing (as is somebody I don't know from taste bridge),<br>
>> >> you might<br>
>> >> > >>> want to work with them on this. There's some talk about<br>
>> >> getting a<br>
>> >> > >>> laminator as well.<br>
>> >> > >>><br>
>> >> > >>> I think the "tagging" comes from a general encouragement<br>
>> >> in the last<br>
>> >> > >>> batch of signs to note changes or improvements, and I<br>
>> >> personally think<br>
>> >> > >>> it's a good way to get direct commentary; though in<br>
>> >> general I also<br>
>> >> > >>> think putting an email and contact on the signs is also<br>
>> >> good. Liz's<br>
>> >> > >>> kitchen signs got taken down specifically because<br>
>> >> someone is working<br>
>> >> > >>> on better versions of them, based on the written<br>
>> >> improvements. Our<br>
>> >> > >>> signs are generally just not very good or clear (or just<br>
>> >> > >>> overpowering), and I think requires more thought than<br>
>> >> simply<br>
>> >> > >>> attempting not to deface or remove ones that aren't<br>
>> >> working.<br>
>> >> > >>><br>
>> >> > >>> d.<br>
>> >> > >>><br>
>> >> > >>><br>
>> >> > >>><br>
>> >> > >>>> -Al<br>
>> >> > >>>><br>
>> >> > >>>> p.s. I put fresh black and color cartridges in the<br>
>> >> white HP inkjet<br>
>> >> > >>>> printer, but print in color sparingly cause it's<br>
>> >> expensive (i.e.<br>
>> >> > >>>> overpriced by monopolistic bastards).<br>
>> >> > >>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> >> > >>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
>> >> > >>>> <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
>> >> > >>>><br>
>> >> <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
>> >> > >>>><br>
>> >> > >>>><br>
>> >> > >>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> >> > >>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
>> >> > >>> <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
>> >> > >>><br>
>> >> <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
>> >> > >><br>
>> >> > ><br>
>> >> > _______________________________________________<br>
>> >> > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
>> >> > <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> _______________________________________________<br>
>> >> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
>> >> <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
>> >> <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
>> <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
>> <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
>><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Shannon Lee<br>(503) 539-3700<br><br>"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."<br>