One way to thread this needle is to focus on signs as labels instead of signs as instructions or statements of policy. For example, a sign with a diagram of where the dishes go and a copy of Danny's "how to do dishes programatically" flowchart might go over better than a big "DO NOT LEAVE DISHES IN THE SINK" and be more effective. Lowering barriers to doing the right thing is at least as effective a strategy as playing on free-form guilt.<div>
<br></div><div>--S<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 12:25 PM, Danny O'Brien <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:danny@spesh.com">danny@spesh.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div class="im">On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 11:26 AM, Al Sweigart <<a href="mailto:asweigart@gmail.com">asweigart@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> I know that signs getting defaced or torn down is a data point, it's<br>
> just not a very helpful one. I have no clue who did it or why, so<br>
> there's no way I can talk to them and work out a change or compromise.<br>
> And if somebody is just defacing a sign instead of bringing it up with<br>
> people, they most likely don't _care_ to talk about it or compromise.<br>
> That's unexcellent behavior that we should change.<br>
<br>
</div>Well, the challenge there is that people perceive signs themselves in<br>
exactly the same way -- as sometimes passive-aggressive attempts to<br>
fix a problem without communicating or working out a change. They're<br>
seen (note: seen as, not *are*) acts by people who don't care to talk<br>
or compromise, but who want to order people around in abstentia. The<br>
communication fails both ways. I'm not saying that's a deliberate<br>
thing by the person putting up the sign, but it's definitely an<br>
impression that one has to mitigate against. The ideal is not to<br>
presume anything about the internal motivations of the people involved<br>
and work to fix the actual outward (ha!) signs.<br>
<br>
I say this as someone who actually likes signs, but has spoken to<br>
people who are old key members of the space, clearly love talking and<br>
compromise and discussion, but also clearly didn't like some of the<br>
signs. Not particularly aggressively, but enough that that was a data<br>
point on its own.<br>
<br>
Note that also the kitchen signs all went down because somebody is<br>
working on integrating them and improving them. I wish I knew who that<br>
was, but she had some really good ideas. Not every sign taken down is<br>
because someone is fuming at them; sometimes they're just messy and<br>
need to be improved.<br>
<div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
><br>
> So to encourage people not taking the defacing route, I'm offering to<br>
> donate a dollar to Noisebridge each day the printed signs go without<br>
> being defaced or torn down.<br>
><br>
> -Al<br>
><br>
> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 10:55 AM, jim <<a href="mailto:jim@systemateka.com">jim@systemateka.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Note Rachel's point that any tagging is a likely data<br>
>> point. I believe most tagging indicates something, however<br>
>> obscure.<br>
>> I'd like to reiterate the idea of clearing an area<br>
>> around a posted sign and add the notion of having fewer<br>
>> signs and/or have signs deal with fewer topics.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Fri, 2011-07-29 at 10:48 -0700, Christina Olson wrote:<br>
>>> Hey kids,<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> In my discussion with Liz and Danny about signs I did in fact touch<br>
>>> upon the points that 1. signs get removed or moved ALL THE DAMN TIME<br>
>>> and 2. no one respects any signage due to the fact that they're not<br>
>>> clear, not consistent, and just printed paper taped to somewhere.<br>
>>> We're working on a branded, systemic set of signs that will be<br>
>>> laminated and nailed/screwed to walls and other things so they cannot<br>
>>> be easily moved or disregarded. If you'd like to be part of the sign<br>
>>> development effort please join the soceng mailing list, and speak to<br>
>>> Liz or myself.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> The soceng meeting will be a day next week that is NOT tuesday, since<br>
>>> I can't ever make Tuesday anything due to a preexisting regular<br>
>>> commitment. It will probably be Wednesday or Thursday, I haven't<br>
>>> decided yet.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> PS: Buying a laminator is hella crazy expensive, like several hundred<br>
>>> dollars for a shitty personal one and thousands for a good one (I've<br>
>>> already looked into this multiple times for other reasons, same thing<br>
>>> with paper cutters and binding machines), so unless someone is<br>
>>> donating one to the space, we are going to get them printed and<br>
>>> laminated elsewhere.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 10:41 AM, jim <<a href="mailto:jim@systemateka.com">jim@systemateka.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> Thanks lots, Al, for your work.<br>
>>> Your offer of $1 a day seems to me to need some<br>
>>> fine-tuning,<br>
>>> mainly to specify particular signs, not just "the printed<br>
>>> signs".<br>
>>> As to tagging, seemingly snarky (gratuitous) additions may<br>
>>> reflect some reasonable criticism, sometimes a matter of the<br>
>>> background attitude that the wording and graphic effect of the<br>
>>> sign presents.<br>
>>> Maybe give some further thought to the design and wording<br>
>>> of<br>
>>> printed signs, including some aspect of printing that presents<br>
>>> the sign as a finished graphic--while that presents a risk of<br>
>>> doing extra work that gets trashed (i.e. tagged), a more<br>
>>> polished<br>
>>> finish may deter the more genuinely snarky changes.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> On Fri, 2011-07-29 at 10:30 -0700, Al Sweigart wrote:<br>
>>> > The tagging I've seen haven't really been helpful commentary<br>
>>> so much<br>
>>> > as just passive aggressive snarky comments or the sign just<br>
>>> gets torn<br>
>>> > down. Either way, it doesn't really facilitate communication<br>
>>> and<br>
>>> > discourages people from putting up signs in the first place.<br>
>>> It's not<br>
>>> > like the wiki, where you can have a separate talk page and<br>
>>> undoing<br>
>>> > edits are trivial.<br>
>>> ><br>
>>> > Anyway, my offer still stands. I'll donate a dollar a day to<br>
>>> > Noisebridge each day the printed signs go without being<br>
>>> defaced or<br>
>>> > torn down. I'll occasionally replace signs and start paying<br>
>>> again if<br>
>>> > they get tagged up.<br>
>>> ><br>
>>> > I'm up for meeting with Liz and Daravinne for brainstorming.<br>
>>> There's a<br>
>>> > wiki page up too: <a href="http://nburl.net/signage" target="_blank">nburl.net/signage</a><br>
>>> ><br>
>>> > -Al<br>
>>> ><br>
>>> > On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 10:10 AM, Danny O'Brien<br>
>>> <<a href="mailto:danny@spesh.com">danny@spesh.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>> > > On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 10:06 AM, rachel lyra hospodar<br>
>>> > > <<a href="mailto:rachelyra@gmail.com">rachelyra@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>> > >> I think if a sign gets removed or defaced it's often an<br>
>>> excellent piece of<br>
>>> > >> feedback from the community about the quality,<br>
>>> intentions, or placement of<br>
>>> > >> the sign. Signs I've made have been removed. I try to be<br>
>>> pragmatic about it<br>
>>> > >> and take the fact of their removal to be something I can<br>
>>> improve against.<br>
>>> > >><br>
>>> > >> I think we need better signage for a lot of reasons...<br>
>>> including exit<br>
>>> > >> signs. Anyone want to start a signage working group with<br>
>>> me?<br>
>>> > >><br>
>>> > ><br>
>>> > > I think the best place for this would be on the social<br>
>>> engineering list.<br>
>>> > ><br>
>>> <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/socialengineering" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/socialengineering</a><br>
>>> > ><br>
>>> > > Me, Liz and Daravinne can't make it to this week's tuesday<br>
>>> meeting (or<br>
>>> > > the social engineering meeting before it, so maybe meet up<br>
>>> before then<br>
>>> > > to brainstorm on it?)<br>
>>> > ><br>
>>> > > d.<br>
>>> > ><br>
>>> > >> <a href="http://mediumreality.com" target="_blank">mediumreality.com</a><br>
>>> > >><br>
>>> > >> On Jul 29, 2011 10:02 AM, "Danny O'Brien"<br>
>>> <<a href="mailto:danny@spesh.com">danny@spesh.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>> > >>> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 9:04 AM, Al Sweigart<br>
>>> <<a href="mailto:asweigart@gmail.com">asweigart@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>> > >>>> One of the efforts I want to do to make the space less<br>
>>> intimidating to<br>
>>> > >>>> new people is to improve the signage around the space<br>
>>> to make it more<br>
>>> > >>>> obvious what things are at NB, where those things are,<br>
>>> and provide<br>
>>> > >>>> answers for "what is this thing?" (protip: If the thing<br>
>>> is glowing<br>
>>> > >>>> and/or slimy, don't touch it.)<br>
>>> > >>>><br>
>>> > >>>> A lot of the signs have been getting tagged up recently<br>
>>> (if you have a<br>
>>> > >>>> problem or suggestion with the wording, feel free to<br>
>>> email me<br>
>>> > >>>> privately or email the list), so to encourage<br>
>>> preserving the signs,<br>
>>> > >>>> I'm going to donate $1 each day the signs go without<br>
>>> being defaced or<br>
>>> > >>>> torn down. (If anyone can help with a part of that<br>
>>> dollar, it'd be<br>
>>> > >>>> great. $365 a year adds up.)<br>
>>> > >>>><br>
>>> > >>><br>
>>> > >>> Hey Al, I think Daravinne and Liz are already working on<br>
>>> improving the<br>
>>> > >>> signing (as is somebody I don't know from taste bridge),<br>
>>> you might<br>
>>> > >>> want to work with them on this. There's some talk about<br>
>>> getting a<br>
>>> > >>> laminator as well.<br>
>>> > >>><br>
>>> > >>> I think the "tagging" comes from a general encouragement<br>
>>> in the last<br>
>>> > >>> batch of signs to note changes or improvements, and I<br>
>>> personally think<br>
>>> > >>> it's a good way to get direct commentary; though in<br>
>>> general I also<br>
>>> > >>> think putting an email and contact on the signs is also<br>
>>> good. Liz's<br>
>>> > >>> kitchen signs got taken down specifically because<br>
>>> someone is working<br>
>>> > >>> on better versions of them, based on the written<br>
>>> improvements. Our<br>
>>> > >>> signs are generally just not very good or clear (or just<br>
>>> > >>> overpowering), and I think requires more thought than<br>
>>> simply<br>
>>> > >>> attempting not to deface or remove ones that aren't<br>
>>> working.<br>
>>> > >>><br>
>>> > >>> d.<br>
>>> > >>><br>
>>> > >>><br>
>>> > >>><br>
>>> > >>>> -Al<br>
>>> > >>>><br>
>>> > >>>> p.s. I put fresh black and color cartridges in the<br>
>>> white HP inkjet<br>
>>> > >>>> printer, but print in color sparingly cause it's<br>
>>> expensive (i.e.<br>
>>> > >>>> overpriced by monopolistic bastards).<br>
>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>> > >>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
>>> > >>>> <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
>>> > >>>><br>
>>> <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
>>> > >>>><br>
>>> > >>>><br>
>>> > >>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>> > >>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
>>> > >>> <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
>>> > >>><br>
>>> <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
>>> > >><br>
>>> > ><br>
>>> > _______________________________________________<br>
>>> > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
>>> > <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
>>> ><br>
>>> <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> _______________________________________________<br>
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>>> <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
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>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Shannon Lee<br>(503) 539-3700<br><br>"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."<br>
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