<p><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/j49hg">http://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/j49hg</a></p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Jul 29, 2011 1:54 PM, "Christina Olson" <<a href="mailto:daravinne@gmail.com">daravinne@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution">> I can appreciate wanting to buy a vinyl cutter, but I put it under the same<br>
> umbrella as buying a laminator: It's gonna put more delay between now and<br>> having signs up. Wide format printed two or three color black-text-on-white<br>> signs run through a regular laminator will be quite readable and perfectly<br>
> serviceable, and take far less time to set up, and making that happen<br>> doesn't actually depend on anyone but me and Liz.<br>> <br>>> One way to thread this needle is to focus on signs as labels instead of<br>
> signs > as instructions or statements of policy. For example, a sign with a<br>> diagram > of where the dishes go and a copy of Danny's "how to do dishes<br>>> programatically" flowchart might go over better than a big "DO NOT LEAVE ><br>
> DISHES IN THE SINK" and be more effective. Lowering barriers to doing the ><br>> right thing is at least as effective a strategy as playing on free-form<br>> guilt.<br>> <br>> ^^^^ This is definitely what I had in mind. I would like to get people to<br>
> feel good about following the directions in the signs, and engaged with the<br>> process of keeping noisebridge in shape, and not feel alienated or ordered<br>> around.<br>> <br>> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Al Sweigart <<a href="mailto:asweigart@gmail.com">asweigart@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>>> It really doesn't matter. The instructional signs get defaced. The<br>>> policy-oriented signs get defaced (even the ones that have been<br>>> reworded after I talk with others about them.)<br>
>><br>>> My offer still stands. I'll donate a dollar to Noisebridge each day<br>>> the printed signs don't get defaced or torn down. That comes to almost<br>>> an extra starving-hacker rate membership.<br>
>><br>>> -Al<br>>><br>>> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 12:50 PM, jim <<a href="mailto:jim@well.com">jim@well.com</a>> wrote:<br>>> ><br>>> ><br>>> > I still think you should define "printed signs" more<br>
>> > particularly.<br>>> ><br>>> ><br>>> > On Fri, 2011-07-29 at 11:26 -0700, Al Sweigart wrote:<br>>> >> I know that signs getting defaced or torn down is a data point, it's<br>
>> >> just not a very helpful one. I have no clue who did it or why, so<br>>> >> there's no way I can talk to them and work out a change or compromise.<br>>> >> And if somebody is just defacing a sign instead of bringing it up with<br>
>> >> people, they most likely don't _care_ to talk about it or compromise.<br>>> >> That's unexcellent behavior that we should change.<br>>> >><br>>> >> So to encourage people not taking the defacing route, I'm offering to<br>
>> >> donate a dollar to Noisebridge each day the printed signs go without<br>>> >> being defaced or torn down.<br>>> >><br>>> >> -Al<br>>> >><br>>> >> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 10:55 AM, jim <<a href="mailto:jim@systemateka.com">jim@systemateka.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> >> ><br>>> >> ><br>>> >> > Note Rachel's point that any tagging is a likely data<br>>> >> > point. I believe most tagging indicates something, however<br>
>> >> > obscure.<br>>> >> > I'd like to reiterate the idea of clearing an area<br>>> >> > around a posted sign and add the notion of having fewer<br>>> >> > signs and/or have signs deal with fewer topics.<br>
>> >> ><br>>> >> ><br>>> >> ><br>>> >> > On Fri, 2011-07-29 at 10:48 -0700, Christina Olson wrote:<br>>> >> >> Hey kids,<br>>> >> >><br>
>> >> >><br>>> >> >> In my discussion with Liz and Danny about signs I did in fact touch<br>>> >> >> upon the points that 1. signs get removed or moved ALL THE DAMN TIME<br>
>> >> >> and 2. no one respects any signage due to the fact that they're not<br>>> >> >> clear, not consistent, and just printed paper taped to somewhere.<br>>> >> >> We're working on a branded, systemic set of signs that will be<br>
>> >> >> laminated and nailed/screwed to walls and other things so they cannot<br>>> >> >> be easily moved or disregarded. If you'd like to be part of the sign<br>>> >> >> development effort please join the soceng mailing list, and speak to<br>
>> >> >> Liz or myself.<br>>> >> >><br>>> >> >><br>>> >> >> The soceng meeting will be a day next week that is NOT tuesday, since<br>>> >> >> I can't ever make Tuesday anything due to a preexisting regular<br>
>> >> >> commitment. It will probably be Wednesday or Thursday, I haven't<br>>> >> >> decided yet.<br>>> >> >><br>>> >> >><br>>> >> >> PS: Buying a laminator is hella crazy expensive, like several<br>
>> hundred<br>>> >> >> dollars for a shitty personal one and thousands for a good one (I've<br>>> >> >> already looked into this multiple times for other reasons, same thing<br>
>> >> >> with paper cutters and binding machines), so unless someone is<br>>> >> >> donating one to the space, we are going to get them printed and<br>>> >> >> laminated elsewhere.<br>
>> >> >><br>>> >> >><br>>> >> >><br>>> >> >><br>>> >> >><br>>> >> >><br>>> >> >> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 10:41 AM, jim <<a href="mailto:jim@systemateka.com">jim@systemateka.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> >> >><br>>> >> >><br>>> >> >> Thanks lots, Al, for your work.<br>>> >> >> Your offer of $1 a day seems to me to need some<br>
>> >> >> fine-tuning,<br>>> >> >> mainly to specify particular signs, not just "the printed<br>>> >> >> signs".<br>>> >> >> As to tagging, seemingly snarky (gratuitous) additions may<br>
>> >> >> reflect some reasonable criticism, sometimes a matter of the<br>>> >> >> background attitude that the wording and graphic effect of<br>>> the<br>>> >> >> sign presents.<br>
>> >> >> Maybe give some further thought to the design and wording<br>>> >> >> of<br>>> >> >> printed signs, including some aspect of printing that<br>
>> presents<br>>> >> >> the sign as a finished graphic--while that presents a risk of<br>>> >> >> doing extra work that gets trashed (i.e. tagged), a more<br>>> >> >> polished<br>
>> >> >> finish may deter the more genuinely snarky changes.<br>>> >> >><br>>> >> >><br>>> >> >><br>>> >> >><br>>> >> >> On Fri, 2011-07-29 at 10:30 -0700, Al Sweigart wrote:<br>
>> >> >> > The tagging I've seen haven't really been helpful<br>>> commentary<br>>> >> >> so much<br>>> >> >> > as just passive aggressive snarky comments or the sign just<br>
>> >> >> gets torn<br>>> >> >> > down. Either way, it doesn't really facilitate<br>>> communication<br>>> >> >> and<br>>> >> >> > discourages people from putting up signs in the first<br>
>> place.<br>>> >> >> It's not<br>>> >> >> > like the wiki, where you can have a separate talk page and<br>>> >> >> undoing<br>>> >> >> > edits are trivial.<br>
>> >> >> ><br>>> >> >> > Anyway, my offer still stands. I'll donate a dollar a day<br>>> to<br>>> >> >> > Noisebridge each day the printed signs go without being<br>
>> >> >> defaced or<br>>> >> >> > torn down. I'll occasionally replace signs and start paying<br>>> >> >> again if<br>>> >> >> > they get tagged up.<br>
>> >> >> ><br>>> >> >> > I'm up for meeting with Liz and Daravinne for<br>>> brainstorming.<br>>> >> >> There's a<br>>> >> >> > wiki page up too: <a href="http://nburl.net/signage">nburl.net/signage</a><br>
>> >> >> ><br>>> >> >> > -Al<br>>> >> >> ><br>>> >> >> > On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 10:10 AM, Danny O'Brien<br>
>> >> >> <<a href="mailto:danny@spesh.com">danny@spesh.com</a>> wrote:<br>>> >> >> > > On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 10:06 AM, rachel lyra hospodar<br>>> >> >> > > <<a href="mailto:rachelyra@gmail.com">rachelyra@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> >> >> > >> I think if a sign gets removed or defaced it's often an<br>>> >> >> excellent piece of<br>>> >> >> > >> feedback from the community about the quality,<br>
>> >> >> intentions, or placement of<br>>> >> >> > >> the sign. Signs I've made have been removed. I try to<br>>> be<br>>> >> >> pragmatic about it<br>
>> >> >> > >> and take the fact of their removal to be something I can<br>>> >> >> improve against.<br>>> >> >> > >><br>>> >> >> > >> I think we need better signage for a lot of reasons...<br>
>> >> >> including exit<br>>> >> >> > >> signs. Anyone want to start a signage working group<br>>> with<br>>> >> >> me?<br>>> >> >> > >><br>
>> >> >> > ><br>>> >> >> > > I think the best place for this would be on the social<br>>> >> >> engineering list.<br>>> >> >> > ><br>
>> >> >><br>>> <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/socialengineering">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/socialengineering</a><br>>> >> >> > ><br>
>> >> >> > > Me, Liz and Daravinne can't make it to this week's<br>>> tuesday<br>>> >> >> meeting (or<br>>> >> >> > > the social engineering meeting before it, so maybe meet<br>
>> up<br>>> >> >> before then<br>>> >> >> > > to brainstorm on it?)<br>>> >> >> > ><br>>> >> >> > > d.<br>
>> >> >> > ><br>>> >> >> > >> <a href="http://mediumreality.com">mediumreality.com</a><br>>> >> >> > >><br>>> >> >> > >> On Jul 29, 2011 10:02 AM, "Danny O'Brien"<br>
>> >> >> <<a href="mailto:danny@spesh.com">danny@spesh.com</a>> wrote:<br>>> >> >> > >>> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 9:04 AM, Al Sweigart<br>>> >> >> <<a href="mailto:asweigart@gmail.com">asweigart@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> >> >> > >>>> One of the efforts I want to do to make the space less<br>>> >> >> intimidating to<br>>> >> >> > >>>> new people is to improve the signage around the space<br>
>> >> >> to make it more<br>>> >> >> > >>>> obvious what things are at NB, where those things are,<br>>> >> >> and provide<br>>> >> >> > >>>> answers for "what is this thing?" (protip: If the<br>
>> thing<br>>> >> >> is glowing<br>>> >> >> > >>>> and/or slimy, don't touch it.)<br>>> >> >> > >>>><br>
>> >> >> > >>>> A lot of the signs have been getting tagged up<br>>> recently<br>>> >> >> (if you have a<br>>> >> >> > >>>> problem or suggestion with the wording, feel free to<br>
>> >> >> email me<br>>> >> >> > >>>> privately or email the list), so to encourage<br>>> >> >> preserving the signs,<br>>> >> >> > >>>> I'm going to donate $1 each day the signs go without<br>
>> >> >> being defaced or<br>>> >> >> > >>>> torn down. (If anyone can help with a part of that<br>>> >> >> dollar, it'd be<br>
>> >> >> > >>>> great. $365 a year adds up.)<br>>> >> >> > >>>><br>>> >> >> > >>><br>>> >> >> > >>> Hey Al, I think Daravinne and Liz are already working<br>
>> on<br>>> >> >> improving the<br>>> >> >> > >>> signing (as is somebody I don't know from taste<br>>> bridge),<br>>> >> >> you might<br>
>> >> >> > >>> want to work with them on this. There's some talk about<br>>> >> >> getting a<br>>> >> >> > >>> laminator as well.<br>
>> >> >> > >>><br>>> >> >> > >>> I think the "tagging" comes from a general<br>>> encouragement<br>>> >> >> in the last<br>
>> >> >> > >>> batch of signs to note changes or improvements, and I<br>>> >> >> personally think<br>>> >> >> > >>> it's a good way to get direct commentary; though in<br>
>> >> >> general I also<br>>> >> >> > >>> think putting an email and contact on the signs is also<br>>> >> >> good. Liz's<br>>> >> >> > >>> kitchen signs got taken down specifically because<br>
>> >> >> someone is working<br>>> >> >> > >>> on better versions of them, based on the written<br>>> >> >> improvements. Our<br>>> >> >> > >>> signs are generally just not very good or clear (or<br>
>> just<br>>> >> >> > >>> overpowering), and I think requires more thought than<br>>> >> >> simply<br>>> >> >> > >>> attempting not to deface or remove ones that aren't<br>
>> >> >> working.<br>>> >> >> > >>><br>>> >> >> > >>> d.<br>>> >> >> > >>><br>>> >> >> > >>><br>
>> >> >> > >>><br>>> >> >> > >>>> -Al<br>>> >> >> > >>>><br>>> >> >> > >>>> p.s. I put fresh black and color cartridges in the<br>
>> >> >> white HP inkjet<br>>> >> >> > >>>> printer, but print in color sparingly cause it's<br>>> >> >> expensive (i.e.<br>
>> >> >> > >>>> overpriced by monopolistic bastards).<br>>> >> >> > >>>> _______________________________________________<br>>> >> >> > >>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
>> >> >> > >>>> <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>>> >> >> > >>>><br>
>> >> >><br>>> <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>>> >> >> > >>>><br>
>> >> >> > >>>><br>>> >> >> > >>> _______________________________________________<br>>> >> >> > >>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
>> >> >> > >>> <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>>> >> >> > >>><br>>> >> >><br>
>> <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>>> >> >> > >><br>>> >> >> > ><br>
>> >> >> > _______________________________________________<br>>> >> >> > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>>> >> >> > <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
>> >> >> ><br>>> >> >><br>>> <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
>> >> >><br>>> >> >><br>>> >> >> _______________________________________________<br>>> >> >> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>>> >> >> <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
>> >> >><br>>> <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>>> >> >><br>>> >> >><br>
>> >> >><br>>> >> ><br>>> >> ><br>>> >> ><br>>> >> _______________________________________________<br>>> >> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
>> >> <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>>> >> <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
>> >><br>>> ><br>>> ><br>>> ><br>>> _______________________________________________<br>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>>> <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
>> <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>>><br></div>