<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:bookman old style, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>Nice one. Thanks for the other point of view. I've posted mainly because I knew that the "non sleeping group" is sometimes a bit too "drastic" I would say and I wanted the others to come up with their points of view == discussion. I do believe it is more or less issue of "who is sleeping in the place", because I bet that there is absolute minimum of members who do that, and they should be the ones who should be allowed to nap first. So we may get again in to the discussion of the "electronic buzzer" who opens the door if you do not have a key, who is the last "reliable person" leaving the place etc. I think that at the end we may get to the kind of "policy" of at least one member after 1 pm in the place if other non members wants to be in or they would have to get in touch with the community, be signed for member
ship or have sponsor who are already members etc. But it looks like that we should come with something what makes sure that people do not "abuse the place" especially in the night.<br></span></div><div><br><span></span></div><div><span>Oncer more thanks,</span></div><div><br><span></span></div><div><span>Sincerely,</span></div><div><br><span></span></div><div><span>Frantisek<br></span></div><div><br></div><div style="font-family: bookman old style, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font face="Arial" size="2"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Christina Olson <daravinne@gmail.com><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Andy Isaacson <adi@hexapodia.org><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> Michael C. Toren <mct@toren.net>; noisebridge-discuss
<noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, October 12, 2011 1:26 AM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] Are people okay with people sleeping at the Noisebridge space?<br></font><br>
As I've been observing the sleeping issue traverse the Noisedrama Top<br>40 list over time, I've come to realize that this is the kind of<br>question where if you have to ask, the answer is No. I personally<br>make it a point to at least doze off for a few minutes at the space<br>every time I go there.<br><br>I think we absolutely should employ favoritism or qualifiers for<br>sleeping at the space, and that they should be reasonably arbitrary,<br>somewhat nebulously defined, and self-policed. Solid community<br>members, people who contribute to the space in some real tangible way<br>like cleaning or running events or making sure the sewing machines<br>work, people who can make it their business to become a common or<br>known face among enough people where you can at least find a FoaF<br>relationship most times. These types of people generally have a good<br>enough justification for napping in the space, because they will
have<br>weighted their presence with other contributions, and are known by<br>face or name to others. Random people, no, you can't sleep here,<br>after wandering in and pawing through the scrap fabric bin for 5<br>minutes. Hell, you're lucky we let you have a chair to put your ass<br>on, at least come to a class or something if you want to sit.<br><br>I mean, if you have half a brain and have been around people for like<br>more than 5 minutes you should know better than to waltz into some<br>public space and crash out for a week. You can't do that in the<br>Citigroup building lobby and you sure as shit can't do it in<br>Noisebridge. Likewise, if you are homeless or experiencing<br>circumstances where you are unable to sleep in the same place or take<br>a shower for 3 or more consecutive days, it is probably time for you<br>to sit down in a location that is most definitely not a hackerspace<br>and think deeply about your life
choices for a bit.<br><br>Social mores are a funny gradient, you know. Most people can tell you<br>that a thing is definitely not acceptable while another similar thing<br>is more or less okay, but they can't tell you *why* this is so. The<br>answer more often than not has to do with tribalism and the fact that<br>we have ingroups and outgroups and in-betweens and the things<br>ingroupers can do are not okay for the outsiders to do and the<br>inbetweens might or might not be able to get away with it depending on<br>a lot of other variables. This exists in many places in a lot of ways<br>(your brother can touch your sister's hair but if a stranger does it<br>you'd punch him in the face, coworkers can make certain jokes between<br>themselves but not in front of other companies employees) and we're<br>all trying really hard to pretend this isn't the case because 50 years<br>ago we had segregated restrooms and no one wants to go down that
road<br>again so suddenly Omg All Tribalism Is Bad Guys. But tribalism is a<br>basic element of human social structure, and Noisebridge IS a tribe,<br>like it or not, and we have ingroups and outgroups and inbetweens and<br>this issue is an expression of that condition. We can't make blanket<br>rules that validly apply to everyone in this case because everyone is<br>not actually equal in relation to our specific community and location,<br>and we should stop attempting to pretend that they are. Ingroup<br>people are trusted and able to exercise privileges that outgroup<br>people are not, and inbetweens have to earn those privileges by<br>becoming ingroupers. Enacting explicit, verbalized rules for<br>establishing the identities of ingroup and outgroup members will be<br>counterproductive because it will enable system-gaming and arguments,<br>but the structure is real and valid and ideally expressed via actions<br>and not
bureacracy.<br><br><br><br>On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 5:11 PM, Andy Isaacson <<a ymailto="mailto:adi@hexapodia.org" href="mailto:adi@hexapodia.org">adi@hexapodia.org</a>> wrote:<br>> On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 04:47:00PM -0700, Al Sweigart wrote:<br>>> Maybe I should change that question. What are people willing to do<br>>> about this problem, or is it something that we shouldn't bother with?<br>><br>> When I see people sleeping at Noisebridge, I wake them up and ask them<br>> not to sleep there. Generally I ask them to leave at that time, too.<br>><br>> It's not very much fun.<br>><br>>> If what we want to do about it is tell sleeping people to not sleep<br>>> here anymore, I'll save you the trouble: they just go back to sleep.<br>>> Or sometimes gave me the "you're not the boss of me" routine. Either<br>>> way their sleeping there the next night.<br>><br>> Sure, and if I see that I
wake them up again, lather rinse repeat.<br>> Eventually most people get the message. Occasionally it needs to be<br>> brought up at a meeting or whatever.<br>><br>> -andy<br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>> <a ymailto="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net" href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>> <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>><br>_______________________________________________<br>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br><a ymailto="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net" href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br><a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss"
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