You are right. It does give the person being dicked a chance to not get dicked though. <br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 9:54 AM, Matt Joyce <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:matt@nycresistor.com">matt@nycresistor.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p>If Gian Pablo thinks you are being a dick and is willing to call you out on it. You ARE being a dick. </p><div class="HOEnZb">
<div class="h5">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Feb 28, 2012 8:59 AM, "Gian Pablo Villamil" <<a href="mailto:gian.pablo@gmail.com" target="_blank">gian.pablo@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Giving massive notice that you're going to be a dick does not excuse being a dick.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 2:22 AM, Ronald Cotoni <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:setient@gmail.com" target="_blank">setient@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I mostly agree as well but at the same time, there was apparently massive notice given. I do notice all of the awesome work that Jim has put into the placefrom both the classes he teaches as well as the physical work he has done in the space. I am sure we can come up with a better solution than putting this equipment on the floor in Turing. <br>
<div><div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 11:43 PM, girlgeek <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:girlgeek@wt.net" target="_blank">girlgeek@wt.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
+1<br>
-Claudia <br><div><div>
On 2/27/2012 9:48 PM, Gian Pablo Villamil wrote:
</div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div>I stand with Jim on this.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>His use of the space is, I think, one of the emblematic
activities at Noisebridge, and one of the few that has taken
place so consistently and effectively. Whatever he thinks he
needs to do to make it happen, I support.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There are other far more important things to deal with at
Noisebridge than the Turing classroom. I really don't understand
the belligerent tone from Tom on this. What does he plan to do
with the space once it is "cleaned up"? I know what Jim plans,
and I heartily support it.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Give Jim the benefit of the doubt on this. Don't piss him
off. We've already lost too many good people.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 3:36 PM, jim <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jim@systemateka.com" target="_blank">jim@systemateka.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
Please read this. I do not believe this email is drama.<br>
I've tried to articulate a problem and am asking for direct<br>
responses at the least from Ben and Tom.<br>
<br>
Not only do I ask that you read, I ask that you read<br>
thoughtfully.<br>
How did the drill press and saws get into the dirty<br>
workshop? For that matter, how is it that the dirty workshop<br>
is there? Likewise for the darkroom and the electronics area<br>
with its 'scopes and soldering irons and lots and lots of<br>
wires, semiconductors, passives.... Likewise for the sewing<br>
area with the machines and the bins of material and drawers<br>
of tools and supplies.<br>
How about the Tastebridge territory with its special<br>
refrigerator and shelves of jars and so on, not to mention<br>
the related kitchen with its shelves and cupboards and so
on?<br>
Put things in member shelves? There are a couple of
issues:<br>
* spacebridge stuff occupies a number of shelves. Why?<br>
* member shelves are subject to mismanagement, it's now
obvious.<br>
As to Turing, do you have plans to remove the whiteboard<br>
and/or the electrical conduit?<br>
<br>
Generally, the answers are that people saw opportunity
for<br>
making use of some area for some particular purpose. The<br>
discussions preliminary to setting up various areas were as<br>
varied as the areas and people who set them up. None of them<br>
were subject to a meeting's discussion or consensus process
or<br>
anything else. Each was do-ocratically established, in some<br>
cases with negotiations with others wrt their interests
(e.g.<br>
I negotiated the "library" space with those who'd claimed
that<br>
wall for photo display).<br>
<br>
The multiple discussions about classrooms in which I've<br>
participated have noted the need for a classroom area that
has<br>
a projector and sound system, similar to the main area, and
to<br>
provide an alternative area so that smaller groups aren't
stuck<br>
with using the projector and sound system in the main area<br>
(which allows people in the main area freedom from the needs
of<br>
a group using the main projector, etc.). Turing makes good
sense<br>
as such an alternate area.<br>
<br>
From time to time there have been do-ocratic efforts,
both<br>
in the space and on the mailing list, to clean things up
and/or<br>
reorganize and/or impress conformance.<br>
Those that took a positive tone to make improvements, in
my<br>
recall, were more successful (especially with respect to<br>
emotional storms on the discuss list) than those that
included<br>
a negative proscriptive component.<br>
<br>
Questions that arise in my mind include "why are you
focusing<br>
on the turing classroom?" "why are you not focusing on the
little<br>
storage and rack closet?" Those are real questions, I'm
hoping<br>
for answers. (I've noticed Ben's response re "electrical
closet".)<br>
I've not experienced such negatively oriented
interference<br>
in any other development of an area in our space. I'd like
to<br>
know why Turing and why now and why in this obnoxious
manner.<br>
<br>
My intention is to set up the Turing classroom so that it<br>
supports classes. I have a lot of experience as a classroom<br>
lecturer--something like ten years in accredited schools,
with<br>
notable success.<br>
Note that I intend to continue setting up the Turing<br>
classroom to be a good and useful classroom, and I expect,
in<br>
the spirit of do-ocracy and noisebridge's history, that you<br>
will respect my efforts to do so.<br>
As far as I know, there has been no time when the Turing<br>
classroom didn't work for a meeting or class. Space in that<br>
room has not been at a premium so far, even with the stuff<br>
that's been squirreled in there under tables against the
north<br>
wall (much or most of it not related to any building or<br>
improvement that i know of).<br>
<br>
A people reading this may recall my occasional pleas in<br>
Tuesday evening meetings for people to step up and take<br>
ownership of various spaces. A few of you have done so, and<br>
with respect to electricity, when you've asked for
electrical<br>
devices, I've tried to help out:<br>
* outlets on the south wall (now buried by shelves)<br>
* large capacity run to the kitchen area<br>
* removing and reorganizing the electrical mess that we<br>
inherited<br>
* totally rebuilt the guts of the primary three-phase
sub-panel<br>
* installed interior entrance lights<br>
* brought three-phase availability in the dirty shop<br>
* all darkroom electricity<br>
* east end lighting improvement<br>
* laser cutter dedicated circuit<br>
* main room ceiling lights and switches<br>
* infrastructure closet lighting and power<br>
I've given up trying to defend order in the
infrastructure<br>
closet, having built all shelves and storage areas to see
them<br>
trashed, filled with random stuff, shelving materials
removed,<br>
and noisebridge electrical supplies removed to piles,
wrecking<br>
the organization I'd worked hard on.<br>
<br>
As long as I'm building this list, I'll add: I was one of<br>
the few who championed improving the floor before we moved
in<br>
and I put a lot of hours working on the prep and sanding and<br>
filling and finishing.<br>
<br>
Can you understand that the censorious manner you're
taking<br>
to my work to improve the Turing classroom is irritating?<br>
As I wrote earlier in this email, I have not witnessed
such<br>
an approach as you have taken with respect to any other area
in<br>
the time we've been either here, at 2169, or at 83C weisse.
I<br>
ask again: why are you acting in this way?<br>
Note I'm not complaining about trying to improve things;
I'm<br>
complaining hard about the way you're demanding behavior
that<br>
has been actually sanctioned for every other improvement in
the<br>
past. (Note also that the build-out policy is that people
can<br>
bring and leave their personal tools and supplies needed to
do<br>
their work as long as they label their tools and supplies.)<br>
I expect that you will, at the least, let me continue to<br>
try to improve the Turing classroom by curtailing behavior
that<br>
demands foolish conformity and is contradictory to
established<br>
Noisebridge norms for improving the space.<br>
I welcome cleaning and organizing efforts. I have pretty<br>
much given up on trying to rescue or reorganize Noisebridge<br>
supplies such as (expensive) copper wire. When we run out of<br>
wire, I'll not resupply--I've spent enough already. If
you've<br>
thrown out the wire that Noisebridge has paid for, please go<br>
to an electrical supply store and replace it.<br>
I'd like positive support, but i'll gladly take silence.<br>
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
<br>
On Sun, 2012-02-26 at 22:19 -0800, Ben Kochie wrote:<br>
> Jim, storing things in the classroom, while
traditional, is still not<br>
> the intended use for that space. We have been
trying to clean up the<br>
> room and make it more habitable and inviting for
classes of all kinds.<br>
> The things you talk about are in their appropriate
locations.<br>
><br>
> Yes, I know you teach classes in there, but that's
only a day or two a<br>
> week. If you want to setup a permanent location
for teaching Linux<br>
> serving, please talk to me on Tuesday night. I'd
love to help.<br>
><br>
> I cleaned out the ewaste and some other garbage
from the electrical<br>
> closet. I have a bit more organizing to do, but
there should be more<br>
> than enough room to hold all the electrical spare
parts in there.<br>
><br>
> On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 19:02, jim <<a href="mailto:jim@well.com" target="_blank">jim@well.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Do you plan to take the saws and drills out
of<br>
> > the dirty workshop? remove the refrigerator
from<br>
> > the kitchen area? How about the sewing
machines<br>
> > and oscilloscopes?<br>
> > I'd like to meet you and talk.<br>
> > jim<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > On Sun, 2012-02-26 at 17:41 -0800, Tom wrote:<br>
> >> As I said on the list almost two weeks
ago, then announced at last<br>
> >> week's meeting, I have removed the
computer/audio equipment and<br>
> >> speakers from Turing, and placed them in
the e-waste pile. Please find<br>
> >> them a better home on your hacker shelf,
or somewhere else where space<br>
> >> is not a premium! If you do so, go ahead
and use them for classes in<br>
> >> Turing, but remove them afterwards. If
these items end up stored in<br>
> >> Turing again, I intend to remove them
permanently.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> >
_______________________________________________<br>
> > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
> > <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net" target="_blank">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
> > <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net" target="_blank">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
> <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net" target="_blank">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
<a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<br>
<pre>_______________________________________________
Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
<a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net" target="_blank">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a>
<a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a>
</pre>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<br>
</div></div><p color="#000000" align="left">No virus
found in this message.<br>
Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com" target="_blank">www.avg.com</a><br>
Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4836 - Release Date:
02/27/12</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net" target="_blank">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
<a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br></div></div><span><font color="#888888">-- <br>Ronald Cotoni<div>Systems Engineer</div><br>
</font></span><br>_______________________________________________<br>
Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net" target="_blank">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
<a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net" target="_blank">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
<a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br>Ronald Cotoni<div>Systems Engineer</div><br>