Hi to all,<div><br></div><div>I would be glad to assist in helping to mediate when I return. I think that she should have her visits to Noisebridge limited but she isn't a bad person.</div><div><br></div><div>-- <br>Sincerely, <div>
<br></div><div>Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck </div><div><br></div><div>biotechnologist&kvasir and hacker </div><div><br></div><div><a href="http://www.frantisekapfelbeck.org/" target="_blank">http://www.frantisekapfelbeck.org</a> </div>
<div><br></div><div>"There is no way to peace, peace is the way." Ghandi</div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 7:42 PM, jim <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jim@well.com" target="_blank">jim@well.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
As to me, if I know a meeting will involve something like<br>
banning, I make an effort to make it, despite wanting to be<br>
in bed before 8 PM.<br>
It seems that such issues may arise without "benefit" of<br>
meeting. What to do?<br>
<br>
Also, some of us conflict-averse hand-wringers worry about<br>
the affects of these events on people both in and tangential<br>
to our community. That there has been a sequence of events<br>
with a similar "taste" and "smell" has had an amplifying<br>
negative affect on a fairly large number of people. The<br>
reputation of Noisebridge is increasingly stained. What to do?<br>
<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
On Thu, 2012-05-03 at 18:57 -0700, Kelly wrote:<br>
> I think one thing that people seem to be getting stuck on is that<br>
> Cynthia did nothing particularly wrong on the day she was kicked out.<br>
> This is totally correct. And perhaps this means that involving the<br>
> police was a bad move, but I think people are very mixed on that so I<br>
> wouldn't condemn it as unexcellent or anything because clearly it<br>
> depends who you ask.<br>
><br>
> In any case, the fact that Cynthia didn't do anything wrong at the<br>
> time doesn't mean that she doesn't deserve to be asked to leave. Most<br>
> conflicts with Cynthia don't escalate to the "justifies removal"<br>
> because frankly most people give up on talking to her before an actual<br>
> conflict develops. She has been consistently getting into conflicts<br>
> about the kitchen though. She is very possessive about the cans in the<br>
> recycling (which she sells) and she sometimes threatens people she<br>
> feels are using the kitchen incorrectly. However, her definition of<br>
> incorrect kitchen usage is very much not in line with the community's,<br>
> and she has not been receptive to attempts to explain other people's<br>
> perspectives. I was briefly involved as a mediator in one of these<br>
> conflicts and it was never resolved, the complaining party just chose<br>
> to avoid Cynthia entirely. I'm also bothered by the rumor that she<br>
> uses noisebridge's address as a residence, which apparently Miloh can<br>
> confirm.<br>
><br>
> I think the biggest failing of the community here is that we should<br>
> have addressed these issues with Cynthia in a meeting, but frankly<br>
> there are too many people that are misusing the space at this point,<br>
> so people are often burnt out and it's easier to just put it off. And<br>
> then eventually someone (usually Jesse) gets totally fed up and acts<br>
> outside the community structure. I have been encouraging him and<br>
> others to bring up these things at meetings, and sometimes that helps<br>
> prevent "lynch mob" behavior.<br>
><br>
> One thing that's really frustrating to me is that there are people<br>
> consistently on the mailing list being all conflict averse and saying<br>
> that things should involve due process, and most of them never come<br>
> participate in the process. If you want more people doing hand-holding<br>
> and mediating conflicts, come help. I'm moving to Boston in a few<br>
> months and then the only people able to mediate will be Danny and Tom.<br>
><br>
> -Kelly<br>
><br>
> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 6:01 PM, Corey McGuire <<a href="mailto:coreyfro@coreyfro.com">coreyfro@coreyfro.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> > Read it. It sounds like bullying. I didn't see that Cynthia did anything<br>
> > wrong. She just showed up, and people took offense to that. That is<br>
> > bullshit.<br>
> ><br>
> > Look, there is a very good chance that I am going to bring non-hackers in to<br>
> > noisebridge. I may even hang out with them, there. If I am supposed to<br>
> > worry about the qualifications of every single person I invite in to<br>
> > noisebridge, noisebridge is going to suffer from the lack of diversity.<br>
> ><br>
> > People. This is a lonely person picked on by people who judge her. Tell me<br>
> > she's the only person that has ever happened to.<br>
> ><br>
> > Guess what? Noisebridge is a play ground, and now we have our own bullies.<br>
> ><br>
> > Fuck...that...noise.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:52 PM, jim <<a href="mailto:jim@systemateka.com">jim@systemateka.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> Why?<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> On Thu, 2012-05-03 at 17:42 -0700, Corey McGuire wrote:<br>
> >> > OK, I read the meeting notes. This...is...in fact...bullshit.<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:39 PM, Corey McGuire <<a href="mailto:coreyfro@coreyfro.com">coreyfro@coreyfro.com</a>><br>
> >> > wrote:<br>
> >> > Joe, I have no idea who you are. As far as I know, I've never<br>
> >> > seen you there. Who's the troll?<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:27 PM, Joseph Brenner<br>
> >> > <<a href="mailto:doomvox@gmail.com">doomvox@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> >> > Uh huh. And when people aren't actually willing to<br>
> >> > show their face to<br>
> >> > talk something out, they sound a lot like an internet<br>
> >> > troll that<br>
> >> > doesn't need to be taken seriously.<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Jake <<a href="mailto:jake@spaz.org">jake@spaz.org</a>><br>
> >> > wrote:<br>
> >> > > yes because whenever people say something is too<br>
> >> > horrible to possibly<br>
> >> > > discuss in an open listserve, where we talk about<br>
> >> > everything else, it just<br>
> >> > > sounds like there's really nothing to say and<br>
> >> > they're trying to cover the<br>
> >> > > lack of justification for what they did with<br>
> >> > secrecy.<br>
> >> > ><br>
> >> > > let's hear it.<br>
> >> > ><br>
> >> > ><br>
> >> > > On Thu, 3 May 2012, Joseph Brenner wrote:<br>
> >> > ><br>
> >> > >> The people who were actually there and made the<br>
> >> > call, did not want to<br>
> >> > >> discuss it on list, they wanted to save it for the<br>
> >> > meeting.<br>
> >> > >><br>
> >> > >> Would hashing things out a second time here, for<br>
> >> > the people who don't<br>
> >> > >> go to meetings, actually help in any way?<br>
> >> > >><br>
> >> > >><br>
> >> > >> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Corey McGuire<br>
> >> > <<a href="mailto:coreyfro@coreyfro.com">coreyfro@coreyfro.com</a>><br>
> >> > >> wrote:<br>
> >> > >>><br>
> >> > >>> Irony is lost on this one.<br>
> >> > >>><br>
> >> > >>> How about this, "Will someone, for the love of<br>
> >> > FUCKING GOD or ALLAH or<br>
> >> > >>> SATAN<br>
> >> > >>> or STALLMAN tell me what the fuck she did wrong?"<br>
> >> > >>><br>
> >> > >>> Feynman, help us.<br>
> >> > >>><br>
> >> > >>><br>
> >> > >>> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 4:40 PM, Jake<br>
> >> > <<a href="mailto:jake@spaz.org">jake@spaz.org</a>> wrote:<br>
> >> > >>>><br>
> >> > >>>><br>
> >> > >>>> except that it's not funny, and Jesse's actions<br>
> >> > are making noisebridge<br>
> >> > >>>> look bad. and getting the police to come over.<br>
> >> > >>>><br>
> >> > >>>><br>
> >> > >>>> On Thu, 3 May 2012, Corey McGuire wrote:<br>
> >> > >>>><br>
> >> > >>>>> You know...it's funny. I still have no idea<br>
> >> > what she did wrong.<br>
> >> > >>>>><br>
> >> > >>>>> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 3:43 PM, rachel lyra<br>
> >> > hospodar<br>
> >> > >>>>> <<a href="mailto:rachelyra@gmail.com">rachelyra@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> >> > >>>>><br>
> >> > >>>>> The last time I talked to her about it,<br>
> >> > Erica was no longer<br>
> >> > >>>>> feeling<br>
> >> > >>>>> welcome because Jesse (the same jesse) told her<br>
> >> > she wasn't<br>
> >> > >>>>> enough of a hacker and she should leave.<br>
> >> > >>>>><br>
> >> > >>>>> This after she had to ask him to stop<br>
> >> > calling her at 3am.<br>
> >> > >>>>><br>
> >> > >>>>> R.<br>
> >> > >>>>><br>
> >> > >>>>> On May 3, 2012 3:02 PM, "Jake"<br>
> >> > <<a href="mailto:jake@spaz.org">jake@spaz.org</a>> wrote:<br>
> >> > >>>>> I couldn't have said it better<br>
> >> > myself.<br>
> >> > >>>>><br>
> >> > >>>>> Why is Erica no longer feeling<br>
> >> > welcome?<br>
> >> > >>>>><br>
> >> > >>>>> I have to say, I have noticed that<br>
> >> > some people (including<br>
> >> > >>>>> Jesse for sure)<br>
> >> > >>>>> seem to be fulfilling my prediction<br>
> >> > that we could swing<br>
> >> > >>>>> around<br>
> >> > >>>>> into the<br>
> >> > >>>>> reactionary zone after we started<br>
> >> > dealing with the<br>
> >> > >>>>> occupiers.<br>
> >> > >>>>><br>
> >> > >>>>> Please re-read the below and let's<br>
> >> > not make the same<br>
> >> > >>>>> mistakes<br>
> >> > >>>>> again.<br>
> >> > >>>>> Calling the police is a LAST RESORT<br>
> >> > and shows bad judgement<br>
> >> > >>>>> on<br>
> >> > >>>>> the part of<br>
> >> > >>>>> the people who did it.<br>
> >> > >>>>><br>
> >> > >>>>> What would Jesse or Will have done if<br>
> >> > a couple of female<br>
> >> > >>>>> members told them<br>
> >> > >>>>> to leave?<br>
> >> > >>>>><br>
> >> > >>>>> Carl said:<br>
> >> > >>>>> You know I don't post here all that<br>
> >> > much, but I really felt<br>
> >> > >>>>> that I had<br>
> >> > >>>>> to respond to this...<br>
> >> > >>>>><br>
> >> > >>>>> I've read through all of the comments<br>
> >> > about what transpired<br>
> >> > >>>>> with<br>
> >> > >>>>> Cynthia, on the discuss list and the<br>
> >> > meeting notes.<br>
> >> > >>>>> Although<br>
> >> > >>>>> I haven't<br>
> >> > >>>>> been present at Noisebridge during<br>
> >> > the past week, from what<br>
> >> > >>>>> I've read so<br>
> >> > >>>>> far, I am really not pleased about<br>
> >> > how people involved in<br>
> >> > >>>>> this<br>
> >> > >>>>> situation<br>
> >> > >>>>> treated her. (This would include<br>
> >> > Jesse, Will, and<br>
> >> > >>>>> apparently<br>
> >> > >>>>> a third<br>
> >> > >>>>> man.)<br>
> >> > >>>>><br>
> >> > >>>>> First of all, calling the police<br>
> >> > really should not be done<br>
> >> > >>>>> unless:<br>
> >> > >>>>><br>
> >> > >>>>> 1. Someone is harming or threatening<br>
> >> > harm to another person,<br>
> >> > >>>>> causing<br>
> >> > >>>>> damage to the space, stealing, or<br>
> >> > otherwise causing trouble<br>
> >> > >>>>> or<br>
> >> > >>>>> performing an illegal activity.<br>
> >> > >>>>><br>
> >> > >>>>> 2. A person who has been officially<br>
> >> > banned from the space<br>
> >> > >>>>> refuses to<br>
> >> > >>>>> leave. And by "official", I mean a<br>
> >> > due process has been<br>
> >> > >>>>> followed<br>
> >> > >>>>> whereas a previous discussion and<br>
> >> > consensus was taken to ban<br>
> >> > >>>>> a<br>
> >> > >>>>> particular person.<br>
> >> > >>>>><br>
> >> > >>>>> 3. AND ONLY AFTER the Noisebridge<br>
> >> > community are unable to<br>
> >> > >>>>> handle the<br>
> >> > >>>>> situation on our own should we get<br>
> >> > the police involved.<br>
> >> > >>>>><br>
> >> > >>>>><br>
> >> > >>>>> I find it troubling when individuals<br>
> >> > take it upon themselves<br>
> >> > >>>>> to forcibly<br>
> >> > >>>>> remove people from the space, who by<br>
> >> > all accounts of what<br>
> >> > >>>>> I've<br>
> >> > >>>>> read, did<br>
> >> > >>>>> NOT cause any trouble prior to being<br>
> >> > asked to leave. I<br>
> >> > >>>>> believe it was<br>
> >> > >>>>> wrong for Jesse and Will to have done<br>
> >> > what they did in this<br>
> >> > >>>>> case, prior<br>
> >> > >>>>> to taking it up at a meeting where<br>
> >> > the members could discuss<br>
> >> > >>>>> and make a<br>
> >> > >>>>> decision as to whether to ban Cynthia<br>
> >> > from the space, AND<br>
> >> > >>>>> ONLY<br>
> >> > >>>>> AFTER<br>
> >> > >>>>> this discussion and consensus would<br>
> >> > it be appropriate to ask<br>
> >> > >>>>> someone to<br>
> >> > >>>>> not return. (and as she brought up,<br>
> >> > informing her of this<br>
> >> > >>>>> could have<br>
> >> > >>>>> been done through email prior to her<br>
> >> > arrival in order to<br>
> >> > >>>>> avoid<br>
> >> > >>>>> this<br>
> >> > >>>>> confrontation.)<br>
> >> > >>>>><br>
> >> > >>>>> I am also troubled by the flippant<br>
> >> > and immature responses on<br>
> >> > >>>>> this list<br>
> >> > >>>>> about Cynthia being "crazy". Her<br>
> >> > past talk of legal actions<br>
> >> > >>>>> against<br>
> >> > >>>>> Texas corporations has no bearing on<br>
> >> > what transpired. As<br>
> >> > >>>>> far<br>
> >> > >>>>> as I can<br>
> >> > >>>>> tell, she hasn't forng more people<br>
> >> > than prior to when the<br>
> >> > >>>>> Oogles started<br>
> >> > >>>>> arriving at the space. The first<br>
> >> > time Noisebridge ever<br>
> >> > >>>>> banned<br>
> >> > >>>>> anyone,<br>
> >> > >>>>> it took considerable discussion and a<br>
> >> > consensus process.<br>
> >> > >>>>> Nowadays it<br>
> >> > >>>>> seems like any member can just ban<br>
> >> > anyone they don't like.<br>
> >> > >>>>> How and why<br>
> >> > >>>>> did we get to this point? And I'm<br>
> >> > not just talking about<br>
> >> > >>>>> Cynthia here,<br>
> >> > >>>>> but others as well. (take Erica for<br>
> >> > example, who no longer<br>
> >> > >>>>> feels<br>
> >> > >>>>> welcome here.)<br>
> >> > >>>>><br>
> >> > >>>>> And lastly, I think we need to stop<br>
> >> > this witch-hunt<br>
> >> > >>>>> non-hacker<br>
> >> > >>>>> hate<br>
> >> > >>>>> mentality that we seem to be<br>
> >> > developing here, which will<br>
> >> > >>>>> only<br>
> >> > >>>>> drive away<br>
> >> > >>>>> new people who may not be familiar<br>
> >> > with hacker culture. If<br>
> >> > >>>>> we<br>
> >> > >>>>> try to<br>
> >> > >>>>> make an effort to become friends with<br>
> >> > them, then we can<br>
> >> > >>>>> encourage<br>
> >> > >>>>> newcomers to contribute and learn to<br>
> >> > become hackers by<br>
> >> > >>>>> involving them<br>
> >> > >>>>> with our projects. Instead of<br>
> >> > rejecting them, we should be<br>
> >> > >>>>> trying to<br>
> >> > >>>>> encourage them to become productive<br>
> >> > participants in our<br>
> >> > >>>>> community.<br>
> >> > >>>>><br>
> >> > >>>>><br>
> >> > >>>>> -Carl<br>
> >> > >>>>><br>
> >> > _______________________________________________<br>
> >> > >>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
> >> > >>>>><br>
> >> > <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
> >> > >>>>><br>
> >> > >>>>><br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
> >> > >>>>><br>
> >> > >>>>><br>
> >> > >>>>> _______________________________________________<br>
> >> > >>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
> >> > >>>>> <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
> >> > >>>>><br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
> >> > >>>>><br>
> >> > >>>>><br>
> >> > >>>>><br>
> >> > >>>>><br>
> >> > >>>>> --<br>
> >> > >>>>> Everything should be made as simple as possible,<br>
> >> > but no simpler -<br>
> >> > >>>>> Albert<br>
> >> > >>>>> Einstein<br>
> >> > >>>>> Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication -<br>
> >> > Leonardo Da Vinci<br>
> >> > >>>>> Perfection is reached not when there is nothing<br>
> >> > left to add, but when<br>
> >> > >>>>> there is nothing left to take away - Antoine de<br>
> >> > Saint Exup?ry<br>
> >> > >>>>><br>
> >> > >>>>> Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson<br>
> >> > >>>>><br>
> >> > >>><br>
> >> > >>><br>
> >> > >>><br>
> >> > >>> --<br>
> >> > >>> Everything should be made as simple as possible,<br>
> >> > but no simpler - Albert<br>
> >> > >>> Einstein<br>
> >> > >>> Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication -<br>
> >> > Leonardo Da Vinci<br>
> >> > >>> Perfection is reached not when there is nothing<br>
> >> > left to add, but when<br>
> >> > >>> there<br>
> >> > >>> is nothing left to take away - Antoine de Saint<br>
> >> > Exup?ry<br>
> >> > >>><br>
> >> > >>> Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson<br>
> >> > >>><br>
> >> > >>> _______________________________________________<br>
> >> > >>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
> >> > >>> <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
> >> > >>><br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
> >> > >>><br>
> >> > ><br>
> >> ><br>
> >> ><br>
> >> ><br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > --<br>
> >> > Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no<br>
> >> > simpler - Albert Einstein<br>
> >> > Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo Da Vinci<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > Perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add,<br>
> >> > but when there is nothing left to take away - Antoine de Saint<br>
> >> > Exupéry<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> ><br>
> >> ><br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > --<br>
> >> > Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler -<br>
> >> > Albert Einstein<br>
> >> > Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo Da Vinci<br>
> >> > Perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when<br>
> >> > there is nothing left to take away - Antoine de Saint Exupéry<br>
> >> > Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson<br>
> >> > _______________________________________________<br>
> >> > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
> >> > <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
> >> > <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > --<br>
> > Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler - Albert<br>
> > Einstein<br>
> > Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo Da Vinci<br>
> > Perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when there<br>
> > is nothing left to take away - Antoine de Saint Exupéry<br>
> > Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson<br>
> ><br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
> > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
> > <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
> > <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
> ><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
> <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
<br>
<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div><br><br>
</div>