<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:bookman old style, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div style="font-family: 'bookman old style', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; ">Hi Raquel and all,</div><div><font size="3">OK first the honest part. You wold have to be much more socially aware and also to be able to control your </font>emotions in order to progress towards to the goals which you aim for, at least if you would move bit faster. This is how I see it, year and half old experiences with you in person and current written text.</div><div><font size="3"> </font></div><div style="font-family: 'bookman old style', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; ">I think that your email says it all, thank you for clear wording. I made few comments, that is all. I'm just sorry that we can not communicate any more, that is bad.</div><div><div style="font-family: 'bookman old style', 'new york', times,
serif; "><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; "><div dir="ltr" style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; "> </div> <br><font size="3">
Frantisek emailed me privately, but I am responding publicly. The</font><br><font size="3">text of his email is included below. I want to be clear about my</font><br><font size="3">goals talking about this on nb-discuss. I am not seeking private</font><br><font size="3">emotional support, advice, stirring up drama, or seeking to cause</font><br><font size="3">problems. I am specifically seeking to have a public conversation</font><br><font size="3">about this issue, because I believe this type of conversation is like</font><br><font size="3">a portal through which we must each pass to reach the utopia where we</font><br><font size="3">can stop worrying about it.</font><br><br><font size="3">>>> I ask people before I post private messages, I think it is a good idea, few times I did not because I send the "reply" to wrong list. This massage = public, fine with me but you should ask first I think. </font><br><br><font
size="3">Frantisek,</font><br><br><font size="3">I'm not angry at jim at all. i am working to change some things i</font><br><font size="3">think are wrong with society. Unfortunately for both jim and myself I</font><br><font size="3">am using our interaction as an example (because it is one) of the kind</font><br><font size="3">of thing that contributes to what we all agree is a problem. My</font><br><font size="3">hypothesis is that rather than being merely symptomatic, these</font><br><font size="3">interactions are actually the substrate [1] upon which the problem is</font><br><font size="3">written, so by working to change these things, we automatically change</font><br><font size="3">the thing we all agree is a problem. My further belief is that it is</font><br><font size="3">important to change these things now, and the only way that they will</font><br><font size="3">change is through this work.</font><br><br><font
size="3">>> Did you ask Jim if he is fine you using this as a "substrate"? Have you talked in dept about it with him, seeing his point of view? From what you describe it seems not to be the case. By general standards I would expect you to get agreement to post about think like this or at least make the person in the story aware that you are planing to do so. PS I've been kissing girls on cheeks twice after my stay in Netherland and three times after Central America, luckily it was taken as harassment yet or at least not to my knowledge - I guess your "incident" can be different matter, not questioning, just pointing to different habits.</font><br><br><font size="3">I think you are a pompous hypocrite for publicly advising L***** to</font><br><font size="3">sleep in the park instead of noisebridge, because i know that you</font><br><font size="3">spent many, many nights sleeping at noisebridge. I personally spent</font><br><font
size="3">nights hardware hacking where I saw you go to sleep in the tea room or</font><br><font size="3">on the roof and then wake up refreshed to face the next day. You used</font><br><font size="3">to keep your toothbrush in the stairwell under the tea room. I can no</font><br><font size="3">longer respect your opinion on matters of social interaction because</font><br><font size="3">of how hypocritical and blinded by privilege that I believe you to be.</font><br><br><font size="3">>> Yes I think in a way I'm </font>hypocritical, working on it thou for the rest of my life I hope. Alas I still do not know the pleasure of the good night sleep at Noisebridge roof, you are wrong there, I was too worried about the leaks. Concerning countless nights at Noisebridge, I would say that there were maybe 7-10 which were my weakness. The other several (and yes several, well less than 10 within 6 months) were because I was
leading classes for cooking a brewing finishing very late most of the time (2-4 am) and had to be up around 7 am. Should not do it but that is how it was. I am sure that I have spend many more nights in the park than at Noisebridge, there is no question about it (at least not for me) and I can say that they were the better ones. Anyone who tries to spend several nights at Noisebridge will find, at least I believe that it is quite pain and it is better to avoid it not mentioning the bad impact on the social status in the community as we can see here even after the years. So again I recommend anyone to do what I like to do and I have found extremely useful (and not just at SF), parks are great, beaches even better, use them if you have to rather than staying on the social places which are not "shaped" for that.<br><br><font size="3">i am not mad about that, either, although i bet you will think that i</font><br><font
size="3">am on reading those words. It's a perception problem inherent to</font><br><font size="3">text-based communication, but there are also observable differences</font><br><font size="3">between behavioral standards for men vs women. Women are expected to</font><br><font size="3">be more nice, more accommodating, more passive and socially supportive</font><br><font size="3">in interactions. Not consciously maybe, but even for those who don't</font><br><font size="3">consciously reinforce this double standard there is as you say some</font><br><font size="3">residue:</font><br><br></div><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; " class="yui_3_2_0_20_134528129401386">>> Woman are in majority more "<span style="font-size: 12pt; "> </span><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">more nice, more accommodating, more passive and socially supportive</span></div><span><span style="font-family:
'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt;">in interactions" it is a matter of fact, I wish more man were like them but woman just have a bigger/deeper </span><span style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif;">emotional</span><span style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> start up potential. It is just a human nature to use your experience to live your life and to a degree it means in practice prejudice. Now when I'm in Korea I can say it is quite a strong cup of tea quite pretty often.</span></span><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; " class="yui_3_2_0_20_134528129401386"><br></div><div class="yui_3_2_0_20_134528129401386"><font size="3">> Concerning the harassment thing, well that is an issue. I think that you can</font><br><font size="3">> not get completely rid of it on both sides if you grew up in the
environment</font><br><font size="3">> where this prejudice was "exercised".</font><br><font size="3">I agree with you. We are all brainwashed. This is why each of us</font><br><font size="3">holds women to higher standards of niceness, and men to higher</font><br><font size="3">standards of stoic emotional control, etc.</font><br><br><font size="3">>> Again this is not brainwash, woman in general have higher social </font>intelligence<font size="3">, they are more caring at least this is my profound life experience and I guess there is a research to back it up. You can try to improve this with both sexes but the predispositions for these fields are with woman. Of course to what degree is a question but I can see definitely pattern. One of the nice examples are dancing classes. Get average 50 guys and 50 girls, switch on the music and watch the dancing, the difference is truly astonishing no matter what sex is
watching. </font><br><br><font size="3">We can work to change this. It starts with you giving me the benefit</font><br><font size="3">of the doubt when it comes to rudeness, and/or shutting the fuck up</font><br><font size="3">about some allegedly rude comment i made years ago. You are so</font><br><font size="3">incapable of reading basic social cues that I have had to verbally</font><br><font size="3">turn down hugs from you. It wasn't harassment because you didn't press</font><br><font size="3">the issue when I said no. I haven't made a big deal about it and am</font><br><font size="3">not mad, but I think that shit is rude [2]. I think you are rude.</font><br><font size="3">I'll be damned if I'll tolerate you sending me private messages</font><br><font size="3">telling me how inappropriate my behavior is. I am making a filter to</font><br><font size="3">shunt your messages to the same folder as nb-discuss. You may
not</font><br><font size="3">contact me for private conversation.</font><br><br>>> I'm sorry to hear it but you just went over the border and you rejected to acknowledge. I tried to make several steps to reconcile which as I see you call "incapable of reading basic social cues that I have had to verbally turn down hugs from you" which I'm quite sorry to hear especially if I consider how directly and without background you "hit me" meaning rudeness or in another words you lost you temper, not me. I'm rude sometimes, trying to read the clues but it doesn't always work even if you try. However I have not lost my temper with another human being and "attacking" for many, many years and I hope to keep this promise up to myself as long as I can. I would recommend you to try the same.</div><div class="yui_3_2_0_20_134528129401386"><br><font size="3">also, this?</font><br><font size="3">> The question
is if the harassment</font><br><font size="3">> happen/someone is emotionally hurt how strictly react back. Too much</font><br><font size="3">> intensity will create negative action which ruin to possible change, not</font><br><font size="3">> enough action keeps the issue unresolved.</font><br><font size="3">falsely presumes that I have not considered the question it poses (or</font><br><font size="3">else inherently calls out my conclusions as wrong) while also</font><br><font size="3">completely missing the point. The interaction I described with Jim</font><br><font size="3">happened a year or more ago. I waited a month to follow up to Jim's</font><br><font size="3">message. I am not hurt emotionally. I am not reacting out of anger.</font><br><font size="3">Too much intensity (and its results as stated) is a matter of opinion.</font><br><br><font size="3">*I am working to change problems that I see in our
society.</font><br><font size="3">*I am speaking frankly about my feelings.</font><br><font size="3">*I do not apologize very much for the discomfort this causes you.</font><br><br><font size="3">Those are the things that I do differently from most people. You</font><br><font size="3">don't have to like it, but I'll thank you to get out of my way.</font><br><br>>> I think that to progress on the first * you have to be very socially aware therefore you would have to be diplomatic about second * and you certainly rule bot out by * statement number 3.<br><br>>> Sincerely,</div><div class="yui_3_2_0_20_134528129401386"><br></div><div class="yui_3_2_0_20_134528129401386">>> Frantisek<br><br><font size="3">R.</font><br><br><font size="3">[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substrate</font><br><br><font size="3">[2] </font><a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rude" target="_blank" style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new
york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; ">http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rude</a><br><br><br><font size="3">On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 9:14 PM, Frantisek Apfelbeck <</font><a ymailto="mailto:algoldor@yahoo.com" href="mailto:algoldor@yahoo.com" style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; ">algoldor@yahoo.com</a><font size="3">> wrote:</font><br><font size="3">> Hi Rachel,</font><br><font size="3">> I'm sorry to hear about the misunderstanding with Jim. Try to consider not</font><br><font size="3">> to blow up on the issue as you for example did years ago when you have been</font><br><font size="3">> re-organizing the dirty workshop and I just came there to return the tool</font><br><font size="3">> which I used and put it on the location where it belonged for last few</font><br><font size="3">> months. You said to put it somewhere else, I said it is suppose to be there</font><br><font
size="3">> and you just blew up directly in to me in quite a pretty rude way which was</font><br><font size="3">> quite unpleasant especially because I liked you (as I still do :-). You are</font><br><font size="3">> impulsive and God knows what was Jim thinking, it could be the "short</font><br><font size="3">> circuit problem" which happens to anyone from time to time and well with</font><br><font size="3">> luck you both will be able to go over it in a fine way with some time. If</font><br><font size="3">> you could take more distance in your emails on the matter and keep calm it</font><br><font size="3">> would certainly help. I am trying to exercise a rule for years, never write</font><br><font size="3">> emails when I'm angry, it works great!</font><br><font size="3">></font><br><font size="3">> Concerning the harassment thing, well that is an issue. I think that you can</font><br><font size="3">> not get
completely rid of it on both sides if you grew up in the environment</font><br><font size="3">> where this prejudice was "exercised". I think that you would have some form</font><br><font size="3">> of "harassment" present at any place where one gender is in majority, like</font><br><font size="3">> you have racism, nacism et cetera in different parts of society. I believe</font><br><font size="3">> that the education and being in touch with lots of other people who are</font><br><font size="3">> quite different is the way to go, traveling and living in another cultures</font><br><font size="3">> works great for many people. The question is if the harassment</font><br><font size="3">> happen/someone is emotionally hurt how strictly react back. Too much</font><br><font size="3">> intensity will create negative action which ruin to possible change, not</font><br><font size="3">> enough action keeps the issue unresolved. I think
that skilled mediator,</font><br><font size="3">> person with really good social skills and who can keep the temper is needed</font><br><font size="3">> in such case.</font><br><font size="3">></font><br><font size="3">> Well anyway it is a huge topic, have a good time, hopefully see you next</font><br><font size="3">> year.</font><br><font size="3">></font><br><font size="3">> Sincerely,</font><br><font size="3">></font><br><font size="3">> Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck</font><br><font size="3">></font><br><font size="3">> biotechnologist&kvasir and hacker</font><br><font size="3">></font><br><font size="3">></font><br><font size="3">> </font><a href="http://www.frantisekapfelbeck.org/" target="_blank" style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; ">http://www.frantisekapfelbeck.org</a><br><font size="3">></font><br><font size="3">></font><br><font size="3">>
"There is no way to peace, peace is the way." Ghandi</font><br><font size="3">></font><br><br><br> </div> </div> </div></div></body></html>