<div dir="ltr">I am with Hep here. Hep knows her photography and are we really talking about people living at noisebridge? There have been at least 5 threads that I know of on this topic and still 0 actual solutions. We are so smart, we are stupid. Does anyone want to actually fix this problem? I am up for creative solutions to this social/technical issue. I would be willing to meet every day until we have a solid solution to this and I think noisebridge needs to do this (part of pulling it's collective head from it's collective butt). I do mean EVERY day with people who want to actually solve this problem. </div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 10:02 AM, hep <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dis@gruntle.org" target="_blank">dis@gruntle.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">I am a professional photographer and do actually know CA law. Unless the photographer is in your face and actually has touched you (the assault and battery portion of the interaction) you don't actually have a leg to stand on. Someone photographing you from across a room is not at all the same as a paparazzi in your face after having followed you for miles, pushing up on you. And furthermore, often those paparazzi are in fact awarded damages and successfully push assault charges against those people who break their cameras (I know and occasionally work with a lot of people who otherwise work as paparazzi and other types of investigative journalists who push the boundaries of public photography vs. stalking.) So your "some tv news cameramen i talked to" advice goes directly in the face of the professional advice and knowledge I have learned from our legal team and other professional colleagues. <br>
<br>Secondly: noisebridge isn't at all like peet's, which is private property that provides a for money service to the public. Peet's is not actually public space, because you are required to purchase goods or services in order to use their space. This means you need permission to photograph anything that is not in public view on the premises (ie i can still stand outside on the sidewalk and shoot through the windows all I want, but if I want to photograph inside I would need permission.) Noisebridge is much more like the lobby of a corporate building, a private property which is held as a private lease, but is open as public access space without fees or money changing hands. These are two very different entities legally speaking as far as photography goes. The way the judge will view it is if the property is open to the public at large without needing a payment of a sorts (either via goods or services) to access it, if this is true, then it is considered public space (regardless of it's other status as using a privately held lease) and photography is permitted in there. This is why journalists are allowed to follow people into office building lobbies, but then cannot follow into the offices of people (because those offices are not open to the public, and therefore are not public space. tho they could shoot through any open doors or windows) The corollary to this of course being that if you don't like someone photographing, if you have the authority in that space you could always ask them to leave, however you cannot actually stop them from taking pictures or demand they remove/delete the images from their drives. This has held up in court repeatedly, including repeatedly in SF down at 555 California (where a lot of politicians and other famous sf people have offices) in their public square/lobby area. The only thing you aren't in fact allowed to photograph in public are things which violate other kinds of privacy, for instance someone's pin number. If someone was able to prove that you photoed or videoed their pin number that is considered a breach of privacy regardless of whether it happened in public (and this is how those people who lay out pinhole cameras over ATMs get tagged.) The same for trying to photo someone's weiner in a public restroom (topical reference.) <br>
<br>Now, all of this is hypothetical at best, but I am pretty solid on the viewpoint that if i were to photograph you at Noisebridge, and you broke my camera, the judge would absolutely award me for damages and knock you for destruction of property, and potentially assault if you actually grabbed it out of my hands. </div>
<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5">
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 8:03 PM, Gopiballava Flaherty <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gopiballava@gmail.com" target="_blank">gopiballava@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div>Yes, there are situations in which a person with a camera could be a legitimate threat. But your initial description was not one of those situations. The scenario you described could easily occur without the photographer even knowing they were doing something wrong. Your invitation said it was ok to vandalize *anybody's* equipment for taking a photo. How many visitors to NB know about the no photo rule?</div>
<div><br></div><div>Your claim about the right to stand your ground is in conflict with what I learned in class in PA, but it is possible that CA law is different. In most cases when you are not in your house you have a duty to retreat if you can do so safely. The duty to retreat is normally conditional on knowing that you can do so in complete safety to yourself and others. That's a high standard and probably one that can't be met when you're in a room with somebody at NB. Retreat in a small room makes no sense.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Celebrities do get in trouble for destroying cameras:</div><div><br></div><div><a href="http://www.epagini.com/2010/05/sean-penn-got-3-years-probation/" target="_blank">http://www.epagini.com/2010/05/sean-penn-got-3-years-probation/</a></div>
<div><br></div><div><a href="http://cdn.mediatakeout.com/26565/breaking-news-kanye-arrested-for-fighting-with-paparazzi.html" target="_blank">http://cdn.mediatakeout.com/26565/breaking-news-kanye-arrested-for-fighting-with-paparazzi.html</a><br>
<br>What you also probably don't hear about is when a celebrity smashes a camera, and then their publicist calls the photographer and offers to take them on a camera shopping trip in exchange for no police report. I don't actually know how often that happens but it seems like a likely scenario. </div>
<div><br></div><div><br>Thanks,<div><br></div><div>gopi@iPhone</div><div><br></div></div><div><div><div><br>On Jan 14, 2013, at 18:10, maestro <<a href="mailto:maestro415@gmail.com" target="_blank">maestro415@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>*an excellent and non-antagonistic/non-judgemental/non-drama response with references...<br><br>*a caveat to your info is that "when accosted by a device of any nature in someone's hand(s) or on their person it can be considered a weapon and/or mode of threatening the security of your person" and you have the un-alienable right to stand your ground...<br>
<br>*a really good example of this is the tv 'news' cameramen that have told me honestly and it has been backed up by a couple judges that if they get right in someone's face with their camera the person can totally throw the camera down without prejudice or liability...<br>
but of course they rely on most not knowing this and sometimes consider the shot(s) worth the damage since they don't pay for it anyway...<br><br>*in other cases judges rarely rule against someone being stalked by individuals or paparazzi and there have been many cases of paparazzi's gear being 'disabled' at no liability to the defendant(s)...<br>
<br>*yes, there is a 'grey area' about noisebridge as the public is welcome to come in BUT it is a privately held lease with a core private membership on private property sooo...<br>it makes it 'technically' not public (like peet's coffee <a href="http://et.al" target="_blank">et.al</a>)<br>
think of it like a park on private property...<br><br>at the end of the day,<br>beings secretly photographing people and seeking to create name lists is the total polar opposite of what NB is all about and makes A LOT of beings that would normally come by and do/share/create kewl things...NOT.<br>
but it does reflect the agenda of what's going on across OUR country and the desire to manifest a stazi-like environment...<br><br>in the past there were fucked up trolls doing/trying to do facial recognition(leo'esque) on beings at the space...<br>
<br>and someone invited a federal agent(that showed their badge) in at the bottom door(with no warrant), gave them a tour, offered them cookies and coffee, and...<br><br><br><br>message ends<br>___________________________________________________________________________________________<br>
<br><br><br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 1:17 PM, hep <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dis@gruntle.org" target="_blank">dis@gruntle.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">actually they can sue you. your right is that they cannot monetize your image, ie sell it, without having you release your rights to not have your image sold. but anyone can take a picture of you in any public place (noisebridge would count as public since it is specifically open to the public at large, and for the public use. it falls in the same category as malls), and you do not in fact have the right to break their camera or demand they delete the photos. if you do break their camera they can in fact have you arrested for theft, and can in fact sue you to replace the camera and any other damages that may occur. if they are a professional photographer and had images on it they obtained rights to and planned on monetizing they can sue you for the lost value as well. <div>
<br></div><div>From Andrew Kantor's excellent photographers rights essay: <br><br>"<span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Further, they cannot demand your camera or your digital media or film. Well, they can demand it, but you are under no obligation to give it to them. In fact, only an officer of the law or court can take it from you, and then only with a court order. And if they try or threaten you? They can be charged with theft or coercion, and you may even have civil recourse. Cool. (For details, see "The Photographer's Right.")</span></div>
<p style="margin-right:138px;font-size:13px;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">It gets better.</p><p style="margin-right:138px;font-size:13px;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
You can take photos any place that's open to the public, whether or not it's private property. A mall, for example, is open to the public. So are most office buildings (at least the lobbies). You don't need permission; if you have permission to enter, you have permission to shoot." </p>
<div><br></div><div><a href="http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/andrewkantor/2005-12-29-camera-laws_x.htm" target="_blank">http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/andrewkantor/2005-12-29-camera-laws_x.htm</a><br>
</div><div>
<a href="http://content.photojojo.com/tips/legal-rights-of-photographers/" target="_blank">http://content.photojojo.com/tips/legal-rights-of-photographers/</a><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra">
<div><div><br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 12:55 PM, maestro <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:maestro415@gmail.com" target="_blank">maestro415@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: <b class="gmail_sendername">maestro</b> <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:maestro415@gmail.com" target="_blank">maestro415@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 12:55 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] sleeping in turing<br>To: Jake <<a href="mailto:jake@spaz.org" target="_blank">jake@spaz.org</a>><br><br><br>bullshit.<div>although NB doesn't have 'rules' per literal definition,</div>
<div>it has ALWAYS been policy NOT to take photos in the space without asking and/or announcing you are doing it and what for, or someone else has put something on the list that people are coming to space and will be filming/photos like mitch does when he sends folks on by the space....</div>
<div><br></div><div>this is most UNEXCELLENT and fucking lame and not the first time this person has suggested doing it...</div><div>still haven't found out what 'kind' of badge he has or reports to, if anyone knows please make it public...</div>
<div><br></div><div>i invite anyone and everyone who catches anyone taking pictures of people WITHOUT their knowledge and permission to grab the camera, take it straight to the dirty room or wherever, and get to pounding it into e-waste making sure you have destroyed the disc and/or film...</div>
<div><br></div><div>and this is your right by the way and NO, they can't sue you so no worries (great hacking too)...</div><div><br></div><div>sleepers can be dealt with in many other ways...</div><div>fascinating that beings would need to be told how but here are just a few starters *</div>
<div>*1st time merely quietly wake them and calmly say IN A COOL WAY "hey, just letting you know the house doesn't want people sleeping and i'm just letting you know before others come and snap/yell at you..."</div>
<div>*walk by clapping loudly, clearing your bronchial cavity, or singing</div><div>*move one of the portable audio devices next to them and put on the spanish or chinese station for 3 minutes (if they haven't risen start dropping books)</div>
<div><br></div><div>been said way too many times already but getting rid of ALL the couches WILL deplete number of sleepers, bedbugs, stank, and filth immediately...</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>message ends</div>
<div>_______________________________________________________________________________________</div><div><div><div><div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 11:19 AM, Jake <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jake@spaz.org" target="_blank">jake@spaz.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Jim (and everyone else who finds sleepers)<br>
<br>
Next time, please get pictures and/or names!<br>
<br>
it's not that hard, and it will help us deal with repeat offenders.<br>
<br>
keep in mind that squatters are taking advantage of the fact that we are not good at tracking them because many hackers prefer to avoid awkward social interactions.<br>
<br>
Do it! Ask them their name, so you can post it to this list. If they are asleep or pretending to be asleep (a common tactic) take a photo, and post it to this list.<span><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
-jake</font></span><div><div><br>
<br>
Jim wrote:<br>
I got here around 9:15 AM and went into<br>
the Turing classroom. The door was closed<br>
and the air smelled like fice-hour farts.<br>
Two guys seems asleep, one had just left<br>
the room, one was sitting in a heap on the<br>
floor and one was in a chair, kind of dazed.<br>
<br>
Not excellent in my view.<br>
jim the snitch<br>
<br>
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