<div dir="ltr">Thanks Seth for your analysis and all the comparisons between Noisebridge's earlier and current spaces and cultures. It is especially valuable to keep our history in mind as an organization!<div><br></div>
<div style>I like Rachel's and Naomi's points too, and think that there are a lot of class issues that affect how things go at Noisebridge and how people perceive each other. </div><div style><br></div><div style>
Sorry I don't have anything super pithy to add right now, but I wanted to thank you for bringing out all these issues.</div><div style><br></div><div style><br></div><div style><br></div><div style>Liz</div><div style>
<br></div><div style><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 8:24 PM, Naomi Most <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:pnaomi@gmail.com" target="_blank">pnaomi@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">The wider economic situation almost certainly is at play here. I<br>
don't think I have ever met, befriended, and had good conversations<br>
with so many homeless people in my entire life as I have in the past 6<br>
months at Noisebridge.<br>
<br>
By the way, I've been meaning to put this out there:<br>
<br>
Please, everyone, stop putting the phrase "homeless people" out there<br>
as a blanket term for The Others. One's housing status has nothing to<br>
do with one's reasonability as a human being.<br>
<br>
If you have to use a word to name a group of people you think are<br>
irredeemably inappropriate for attendance at Noisebridge, try<br>
"barbarians" or "libertarians" or something. :)<br>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
--Naomi<br>
</font></span><br>
ps. just a joke! Some of my best friends speak Barbar!<br>
<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 5:25 PM, rachel lyra hospodar<br>
<<a href="mailto:rachelyra@gmail.com">rachelyra@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> When commenting on the likelihood of things being stolen it may be useful to<br>
> note that we are now in the middle of a global financial recession. Maybe<br>
> you've heard about it? It has been ongoing since 2008 and has continuing<br>
> ripple effects across many communities, especially ones that were already<br>
> marginal. This has affected many people and changed the way valuables may<br>
> be perceived or treated. Relevant to our particular location, SF is a<br>
> destination for many marginalized people who are seeking social services<br>
> (such as healthcare), because they exist in some places and not others.<br>
><br>
> Additionally, the income disparity between young technology workers and the<br>
> society within which they exist is increasing dramatically, affecting the<br>
> social dynamics anyplace 'young technology workers' congregate.<br>
><br>
> I think nthmost is right on in describing our most easily addressed problem<br>
> currently as a scaling issue.<br>
><br>
> TL;DR perhaps there are 'more homeless people than before' on a slightly<br>
> larger scale than within our priveleged, myopic clubhouse.<br>
><br>
> R.<br>
><br>
> On Mar 23, 2013 11:42 AM, "Seth David Schoen" <<a href="mailto:schoen@loyalty.org">schoen@loyalty.org</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Gavin Knight writes:<br>
>><br>
>> > Seth,<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Out of ignorance, what do you feel is the differences physically,<br>
>> > culturally etc that allowed this at the previous location and not now<br>
>><br>
>> Hi Gavin,<br>
>><br>
>> I don't know what accounts for the difference, or at least I don't have a<br>
>> single pet theory about it. It makes me sad, and I realize that I was<br>
>> much<br>
>> more enthusiastic about the old Noisebridge.<br>
>><br>
>> I've tried to brainstorm things that changed; here are 23 (a classic<br>
>> hacker number) notions about similarities and differences from 83C to 2169<br>
>> -- with a focus on those that might be relevant to thefts and other ways<br>
>> that Noisebridge participants treat one another abusively. These are<br>
>> based on my own perceptions and recollections and might be wrong or<br>
>> incomplete.<br>
>><br>
>> These are in alphabetical order to stress that I'm not trying to make a<br>
>> claim that a particular one is clearly more important than another. Also,<br>
>> not all of these things are changes for the worse.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> 2169 has become known as an appealing target to people intending to abuse<br>
>> its hospitality and resources, in a way that never happened to 83C.<br>
>><br>
>> 83C held fewer, and smaller, widely-advertised public events, solely due<br>
>> to space limitations.<br>
>><br>
>> 83C was in a physically less prominent location than the new space, with<br>
>> much less foot traffic passing directly in front of the space.<br>
>><br>
>> 83C was more (not less!) focused on protecting attendees' anonymity and<br>
>> privacy, with more explicitly advocated norms against cameras and<br>
>> photography in the space, in favor of pseudonyms and proxies, and<br>
>> against publishing records of who attended meetings or became a member.<br>
>> In large part, I think people worried that documented participation in<br>
>> a "hacker space" could stigmatize people in the outside world. Some<br>
>> of these norms were also modeled on European privacy activists'<br>
>> anti-photography norms.<br>
>><br>
>> 83C was smaller, so most users of the space were physically in view of<br>
>> other users at all times.<br>
>><br>
>> A higher fraction of the community at 83C attended and participated in<br>
>> Tuesday night weekly meetings.<br>
>><br>
>> Answering the door at 83C required physically opening it by hand, and<br>
>> going to let a guest in personally.<br>
>><br>
>> It was against Noisebridge's norms to create rules in advance of or in<br>
>> anticipation of problems, but not in response to problems. Most members<br>
>> appeared willing to create rules (beyond the one rule of excellence) in<br>
>> response to problems that actually occurred; the watchword seemed to be<br>
>> not "don't create rules" but "don't create rules pre-emptively".<br>
>><br>
>> Membership was more valued at 83C; members took more responsibility<br>
>> and received more respect, and there was much stronger social pressure<br>
>> encouraging, though not requiring, regular users of the space to seek<br>
>> membership. I perceived a sense that ideally every regular Noisebridge<br>
>> user would seek membership. However, there was no clear consensus that<br>
>> members should receive any concrete benefits over non-members, and there<br>
>> was a clear understanding that non-members were welcome to use the space.<br>
>><br>
>> More people who used 83C were regularly employed in technology-related<br>
>> jobs than at 2169.<br>
>><br>
>> New visitors to 83C appeared to feel more obligation to introduce<br>
>> themselves and account for themselves. I don't know whether this is<br>
>> because of how they were treated, because of the fact that a<br>
>> particular individual had just physically opened the door for them,<br>
>> because they had less of an understanding that the space was<br>
>> automatically or completely "open to the public", or for some other<br>
>> reason.<br>
>><br>
>> New visitors and new prospective members were often introduced in<br>
>> person at a Tuesday night meeting. Some were visiting from far away<br>
>> and they were welcomed and congratulated for having made the trip.<br>
>><br>
>> Noisebridge's existence at 83C was much less widely publicized and<br>
>> advertised. Noisebridge was much less famous then than it is now.<br>
>><br>
>> Non-members wanting to use 83C for events or gatherings were more<br>
>> strictly admonished to bring their plans to a weekly meeting ahead<br>
>> of time.<br>
>><br>
>> Organized, pre-announced group events may have represented a larger<br>
>> overall fraction of the uses of 83C. In any case, they were much more<br>
>> conspicuous due to the smaller space and lack of many separate rooms.<br>
>><br>
>> The 83C space frequently closed at night, and it always routinely closed<br>
>> when the last keyholder left. Keyholders and non-keyholders generally<br>
>> regarded this as necessary and appropriate. No non-keyholders expected<br>
>> or demanded to be present in the absence of a keyholder. There was a<br>
>> widespread view that only members should be keyholders, but this view<br>
>> never commanded unanimity or formal consensus and was never implemented<br>
>> in practice, with several members explicitly acting against it.<br>
>><br>
>> The community at 83C more often compared itself to other existing<br>
>> hackerspaces and was more apt to express curiosity about what those<br>
>> hackerspaces were doing, how they were organized, and what their<br>
>> communities were like.<br>
>><br>
>> The community of users of 83C was smaller, so the users and members were<br>
>> much more likely to know and recognize each other.<br>
>><br>
>> The consensus process may have been taken more seriously at 83C; in any<br>
>> case, a higher fraction of users of the space had heard of it and had<br>
>> some general understanding of its nature. More questions were brought<br>
>> to formal consensus, although there was no clear rule or consensus<br>
>> about what topics needed to be brought to consensus.<br>
>><br>
>> The lease on 83C was originally in the name of a few Noisebridge board<br>
>> members, individually, rather than in the name of the corporation. This<br>
>> created social pressure to respect the space as a way of respecting the<br>
>> leaseholders, and because of their personal liability for it. I think<br>
>> it also created a sense of gratitude to them for taking a risk and<br>
>> expending resources so that the space could exist in the first place.<br>
>><br>
>> The mediation or conflict-resolution processes were less well-developed<br>
>> at 83C than they are at 2169. I suspect more people at 83C would have<br>
>> said that conflict-resolution was important, but that doesn't mean it<br>
>> was practiced more or better there. There were already multiple people<br>
>> who simply stopped coming to 83C rather than attempting to use some<br>
>> official conflict-resolution method or channel. Defining "excellence"<br>
>> then was probably as difficult as it is today.<br>
>><br>
>> There was a more defined culture about the intended purpose of the space<br>
>> at 83C (though I don't think I could call it "well-defined").<br>
>><br>
>> There were fewer valuable tools and instruments at 83C than there are<br>
>> at 2169.<br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> Seth David Schoen <<a href="mailto:schoen@loyalty.org">schoen@loyalty.org</a>> | No haiku patents<br>
>> <a href="http://www.loyalty.org/~schoen/" target="_blank">http://www.loyalty.org/~schoen/</a> | means I've no incentive to<br>
>> FD9A6AA28193A9F03D4BF4ADC11B36DC9C7DD150 | -- Don Marti<br>
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><br>
><br>
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<br>
<br>
<br>
</div></div><div class="im HOEnZb">--<br>
Naomi Theora Most<br>
<a href="mailto:naomi@nthmost.com">naomi@nthmost.com</a><br>
<a href="tel:%2B1-415-728-7490" value="+14157287490">+1-415-728-7490</a><br>
<br>
skype: nthmost<br>
<br>
<a href="http://twitter.com/nthmost" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/nthmost</a><br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div><br>. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .<br>Liz Henry<br></div><a href="mailto:lhenry@mozilla.com" target="_blank">lhenry@mozilla.com</a><br>
<a href="mailto:lizhenry@gmail.com" target="_blank">lizhenry@gmail.com</a><br></div>
</div>