<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif">Oh, and I forgot to mention..<br><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif">I don't think police brutality is something that is encompassed under the definition of "justice" either.<br>
</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Aly Kaplan <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:alykaplan@gmail.com" target="_blank">alykaplan@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Y<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;display:inline">es.<br></div><br><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;display:inline">
<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;display:inline">
In this sense... people are obstructions in much the same way that they are obstructions to justice by filming police.<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;display:inline">The interpretation or willingness of those imposing the law is not always synonymous with a dictionary definition, unfortunately.<br>
</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;display:inline">The fact that it is used in a way that is NOT synonymous with the dictionary definition leads me to believe that at the very least, the dictionary definition may not be sufficient to define obstruction.<br>
Similarly, many laws DO define obstruction very clearly in their contexts. (In San Francisco, a vehicle on a sidewalk is considered an "obstruction".)<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;display:inline">
<br>I realize this doesn't particularly add to the conversation of who to exclude, and we've gone off on quite a tangent.<br>I simply dislike when others impose something as law when this isn't even clearly stated as such.<br>
</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;display:inline">(Yes, I do not take the total of your links to mean what you have stated. I think you have imposed something onto it.)<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;display:inline">
<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;display:inline">The ambiguity in the law is certainly intentional, though!<br></div></div><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><div class="gmail_extra">
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 3:41 PM, Mitchel McAllister <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:xonimmortal@yahoo.com" target="_blank">xonimmortal@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td style="font:inherit" valign="top">"People standing on the fire escape are obstructions" are my words. They are also common sense.<br>
<br>Here's an experiment. Stand in the doorway between the stairs and the space. Don't move. See how many people can go through the doorway.<br><br>Now, try this: lock the door to the space, from the inside, as is required by law for doors to a fire escape. See how many people can come in.<br>
<br>Even if you maintain (absent common sense) that people standing on the fire escape are not obstructions, they would still be unable to come back into the space if we adhere to the requirement that the door be locked so that people can not enter the space from the fire escape.<br>
<br>And yes, re-entering is entering. Re-enter means "to enter again".<br><br>What I am seeing, far in excess of suggested solutions, is a bunch of people kicking their heels and screaming "you
can't make me".<br><br>Guess what? Throwing tantrums isn't excellent either, unless you accept the expanded and broadened meaning of "whatever one wants to do, regardless of how it affects others".<div>
<br><br>- Reverend Mik McAllister<br><hr></div><div>"You can see the summit but you can't reach it<br>Its the last piece of the puzzle but you just can't make it fit<br>Doctor says you're cured but you still feel the pain<br>
Aspirations in the clouds but your hopes go down the drain"<br> - Howard Jones, "No One Is To Blame"<br></div><hr><div>Purveyor of Subversive Fiction<br><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.prismandink.com" target="_blank">http://www.prismandink.com</a><br>
<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.lunatextpublications.com" target="_blank">http://www.lunatextpublications.com</a><br><br></div><div>--- On <b>Fri, 4/12/13, Andrew Byrne <i><<a href="mailto:andrew@pachakutech.com" target="_blank">andrew@pachakutech.com</a>></i></b> wrote:<br>
</div><blockquote style="border-left:2px solid rgb(16,16,255);margin-left:5px;padding-left:5px"><div><br>From: Andrew Byrne <<a href="mailto:andrew@pachakutech.com" target="_blank">andrew@pachakutech.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] Who do we want to exclude? [Drama]<br>To: "Mitchel McAllister" <<a href="mailto:xonimmortal@yahoo.com" target="_blank">xonimmortal@yahoo.com</a>><br></div>Cc: "NoiseBridge Discuss" <<a href="mailto:noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net" target="_blank">noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a>>, "Aly Nb" <<a href="mailto:alykaplan@gmail.com" target="_blank">alykaplan@gmail.com</a>><br>
Date: Friday, April 12, 2013, 3:18 PM<div><div><br><br><div><p dir="ltr">" people standing on the fire escape are obstructions" <-- are those your words, or the law? If the latter, then I would point out a seemingly glaring confound in the law, if the former, your confusion; it would seem the quoted law even makes an example of cases (not ours) where people are often to be found. The only way I can see that line making a lick of sense is if one can legally occupy /only/ Useable Open Spaces, which is not really the domain of the fire code. It's not like it's a designated smoking area or something. -dru</p>
<div>On Apr 12, 2013 2:24 PM, "Mitchel McAllister" <<a rel="nofollow" href="http://mc/compose?to=xonimmortal@yahoo.com" target="_blank">xonimmortal@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
--- On Fri, 4/12/13, Aly Kaplan <<a rel="nofollow" href="http://mc/compose?to=alykaplan@gmail.com" target="_blank">alykaplan@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> I'd like to see the law that says this is illegal -- it certainly isn't<br>
> according to SF Fire Code.<br>
><br>
> However, it is always good to be excellent to your neighbors.It may also<br>
> be prohibited on your lease.<br>
<br>
Retrieved from <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates&fn=default.htm&vid=amlegal:sanfrancisco_ca" target="_blank">http://www.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates&fn=default.htm&vid=amlegal:sanfrancisco_ca</a><br>
<br>
San Francisco Fire Code 1030.2.1 [Chapter 10 "Means of Egress"]<br>
Fire escapes and related balconies, ladders, landings, and operating devices shall not be obstructed in any manner. No object shall be stored on or attached to a fire escape without the approval of the fire code official.<br>
<br>
San Francisco Building Inspection Commission (BIC) Codes Sec. 908<br>
All safety devices or equipment provided for in this chapter shall be maintained in good repair at all times. Fire escapes shall be kept clear and unobstructed and be readily accessible at all times. Upon inspection, the property owner, or authorized agent, shall demonstrate to the Director or designated personnel, that all existing fire escapes are fully operational and properly maintained. Upon completion of the inspection, all existing fire escapes shall be secured pursuant to Section 1110.3.1. of the San Francisco Fire Code.<br>
<br>
San Francisco Planning code Article 1.2 SEC. 135. USABLE OPEN SPACE FOR DWELLING UNITS AND GROUP HOUSING, R, NC, MIXED USE, C, AND M DISTRICTS. (f)(3) Fire Escapes as Usable Open Space. Normal fire escape grating shall not be considered suitable surfacing for usable open space. The steps of a fire escape stairway or ladder, and any space less than six feet deep between such steps and a wall of the building, shall not be credited as usable open space. But the mere potential use of a balcony area for an emergency fire exit by occupants of other dwelling units (or bedrooms in group housing) shall not prevent it from being credited as usable open space on grounds of lack of privacy or usability.<br>
<br>
People standing on the fire escape are obstructions. Fire escapes are not open space.<br>
<br>
However, I also noticed that we are in violation because the fire escape door is not locked against people entering from outside, which seems to be the focus of a lot more codes, ordinances, and case law.<br>
<br>
<br>
- Reverend Mik McAllister<br>
"You can see the summit but you can't reach it<br>
Its the last piece of the puzzle but you just can't make it fit<br>
Doctor says you're cured but you still feel the pain<br>
Aspirations in the clouds but your hopes go down the drain"<br>
- Howard Jones, "No One Is To Blame"<br>
Purveyor of Subversive Fiction<br>
<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.prismandink.com" target="_blank">http://www.prismandink.com</a><br>
<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.lunatextpublications.com" target="_blank">http://www.lunatextpublications.com</a><br>
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