<div dir="ltr"><br><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jun 28, 2013 at 8:57 AM, rachel lyra hospodar <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rachelyra@gmail.com" target="_blank">rachelyra@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p>Assault and harrassment are both problems in our community, so we discuss them both.</p>
<p>Many people in our community are anti-authoritarian, anti-police-violence, etc, so we don't spend lots of time exploring solutions that move in that direction.</p></blockquote><div style><br></div><div style>I believe it would be harmful to noisebridge to give any impression that we condone crime in any manner, or that we inhibit anyone in any manner from freely reporting a crime, or otherwise engaging with the justice system according to their rights.</div>
<div style> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<p>We aren't using civil or criminal law (or punishments) to guide our community development, but rather our collaboratively developed moral compass.</p></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>I also concur that we are focused on a collaborative moral compass. (I like that term!)</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>I propose that the idea we should promote is that we want to do better than the official justice system in which we are embedded. Anyone is free to rely on that justice system, and wherever they do, I submit that this is a failure of nb community.</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>Basically, where we do better than the justice system, people will consensually rely on our community. Where we do worse than the justice system, people should prefer the justice system.</div>
<div style> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p> This means that the division you are drawing between the two different types of acts is optional, and I'll warrant there are those among us who find these different types of objectionable behavior to be related. Perhaps even they both have been displayed by the same individual.</p>
</blockquote><div><br></div><div style>To continue with the perspective I'm advocating: the distinction is optional *for our purposes*, but not for the legal system we operate in, nor for the purposes of any individual who freely chooses to rely on the justice system.</div>
<div style><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<p>HTH.</p></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>Regards,</div><div style>Nathan</div><div style><br></div><div style> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Jun 28, 2013 10:16 AM, "Jim Gleason" <<a href="mailto:jim@opiate.org" target="_blank">jim@opiate.org</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
I realize i'm new here, but, in reading the posts to try to understand the background fueling this, I noticed something. Do you all understand that Sexual Harassment is a civil matter. Sexual Assault is, quite differently, a criminal matter.<br>
<br>
Its confusing to follow this, because it seems like the two words (assault and harassment) are used interchangibly. Both are serious, but assault certainly (at least to me) is drastically different than harassment.<br>
<br>
Telling a victim of an assault what to do, I agree thats a little pushy and (in the moment) manipulative.<br>
That said, assuring a victim that its OK to notify authorities is, IMHO required advice given that sexual assault is a crime, while sexual harassment is not.<br>
<br>
Could someone make it very clear to those of us both new and old, exactly what we're talking about here? Either someone was assaulted, or someone is taking issue with the (however they subjectively quantify and perceive this) way someone is interacting with women.<br>
<br>
It seems that it boils down to this: actions that are per-se criminal and actions that are not... The former is a serious thing and frankly if not true, for one to toss out words with that implication is as just as despicable as those commiting sexual assaults.<br>
<br>
Just becauase people find a person, even disgustingly, offensive, is not reason to use language insinuating something far worse than what amounts to a civil tort.<br>
<br>
hep <<a href="mailto:dis@gruntle.org" target="_blank">dis@gruntle.org</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
>I would like to take this opportunity to say that I support anyone who<br>
>chooses not to involve law enforcement in a sexual assault or other<br>
>situation if that is the way they desire to deal with the incident. Law<br>
>enforcement has a notoriously poor record on prosecuting or taking<br>
>seriously sexual assault claims. I fully understand not wanting to go<br>
>through an even more invasive procedure of "proving" your violation in a<br>
>court of law setting, complete with the humiliation and damage to one's<br>
>reputation that most sexual assault cases incur.<br>
><br>
>In closing: please don't tell sexual assault victims what to do! Seriously!<br>
>We all know about law enforcement! We have also grown up with SUV, and CSI<br>
>and other kinds of cop shows. We weren't raised in some kind of cave system<br>
>wherein we managed to make it to whatever age we are without knowing about<br>
>police. Did you not see that a major politician pushing through legislature<br>
>recently spoke to the idea that rape kits "clean you out" after a rape? Are<br>
>we not witnessing several states going through the motions of making it<br>
>illegal to have abortions even in the case of rape or incest? Are there not<br>
>repeatedly cases in the media wherein teen girls are raped and it takes<br>
>massive online social pressure to even prod the police into making an<br>
>investigation? We do not yet live in a society where the majority powers<br>
>take sexual assault seriously enough, and are able to prosecute it with the<br>
>full respect of the victims. If you want more sexual assault victims to<br>
>report to police, instead of telling them what to do, why don't you work on<br>
>pressuring law enforcement systems to take sexual assault seriously, and<br>
>change their practices to provide more support to the victims instead of<br>
>putting them through an often even more demeaning and traumatic ordeal. jfc<br>
>this list sometimes.<br>
><br>
>-hep<br>
><br>
><br>
>On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 8:31 AM, Scott Feichter <<a href="mailto:scottfeichter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">scottfeichter@yahoo.com</a>>wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Separate from this specific situation of which I know nothing, I encourage<br>
>> anyone who feels as though they have been sexually harassed to contact law<br>
>> enforcement as a first line response.<br>
>><br>
>> I know many feel disappointed in government these days, but there are<br>
>> resources specifically available for this through fed, state, and local gov<br>
>> since after all sexual harassment is illegal.<br>
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>><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>--<br>
>hep<br>
>hepic photography || <a href="http://www.hepic.net" target="_blank">www.hepic.net</a><br>
> <a href="mailto:dis@gruntle.org" target="_blank">dis@gruntle.org</a> || <a href="tel:415%20867%209472" value="+14158679472" target="_blank">415 867 9472</a><br>
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