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Hi Danny<br>
<br>
In respect, gratitude, and good faith:<br>
<br>
On 7/31/2013 9:50 AM, Danny O'Brien wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAAkY2sfmAH4sHuvw45B2CnuLsx5qAohA70A7mL06yL=Ss9kttA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">"There are lots of fascinating challenges to running a
hackerspace using the purest anarchist collective principles...."<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div><br>
I wrote that. It's a joke. The idea that we use "purest
anarchist collective principles" is obviously a joke, because
we don't. <br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
then the word "purest" must be the joke, because, as your quoted
essay points out, NB is, in some ways, allied with anarchist
movements, and does contain some anarchistic elements (eg., consenso
and leaderlessness). Unless your whole entire essay was also a joke.
Regardless, Noisebridge still contains those anarchistic elements. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAAkY2sfmAH4sHuvw45B2CnuLsx5qAohA70A7mL06yL=Ss9kttA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>The other piece you pointed to is titled "Is Noisebridge an
Anarchist Hackerspace"[1] and unless the entire article (which
Tony asked me, under that title, to write) is just "yes", your
assertion that I think that Noisebridge is an anarchist
organization is unlikely to be the case. <br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I did not say that you "think that Noisebridge is an anarchist
organization". In that essay, you do describe NB as leaning toward
some anarchist principles, and the essay did not appear to be one
big joke (tho' strewn with your always lovable humour). <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAAkY2sfmAH4sHuvw45B2CnuLsx5qAohA70A7mL06yL=Ss9kttA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>
The piece I wrote debates the point at length, (and isn't
even a position that I share any more, clearly, because these
days I'm a Stalinist. No, wait, I'm still a Carsonite
Mutualist. Or a Macleodian Fourth Internationalist)</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes, your piece debates it at length, and concludes, by my reading,
somewhere on the left side of the dial. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAAkY2sfmAH4sHuvw45B2CnuLsx5qAohA70A7mL06yL=Ss9kttA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>people who are hung up on terminology aren't really that
interesting to spend time with. </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
To be clear, I am not hung up on terminology, I'm simply observing
what appears to be an undercurrent in NB history and operations.<br>
<br>
(ot: However, there is one label which is extremely important to me
regarding Noisebridge, which is "hackerspace". I gather that some
members are not concerned with that label. Sometimes I explain,
outraged, that NB should conform to a collectively articulated idea
of a "hackerspace".)<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAAkY2sfmAH4sHuvw45B2CnuLsx5qAohA70A7mL06yL=Ss9kttA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>One of the reasons why I stress that Noisebridge isn't an
anarchist space now...</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
(you mean noisebridge now? or you mean you're explaining now?)<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAAkY2sfmAH4sHuvw45B2CnuLsx5qAohA70A7mL06yL=Ss9kttA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div> ...is because people are explaining, outraged, that it
should conform to their idea of an anarchist space, and that
is the dumbest argument ever. </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
i was not aware anyone was doing that. Can you point to an example?
Why is it dumb? I'm certainly not arguing that Noisebridge should be
Anarchist, but i'm interested to hear why you feel it's dumb. <br>
<br>
Personally, i think reevaluating NB's anarchistic tendencies might
not be the dumbest argument ever. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAAkY2sfmAH4sHuvw45B2CnuLsx5qAohA70A7mL06yL=Ss9kttA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>Noisebridge is just noisebridge.<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I agree. If one needs a single label to paste onto Noisebridge,
"Noisebridge" is probably best. Personally, i would like to be able
to say "Noisebridge is a hackerspace", and have that actually mean
something other than a space oftentimes dominated by people who are
neither learning, nor teaching, nor making anything. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAAkY2sfmAH4sHuvw45B2CnuLsx5qAohA70A7mL06yL=Ss9kttA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>
As I've argued endlessly before, Consensus is as much
plundered from the processes of the IETF than it is from Foods
not Bombs. Maybe I should have spelled that out more in that
article, but I only had four pages.<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I missed the occasions when you argued that point. The zipzine pages
seem a bit out of order, or missing some sections, and also i'm
semi-literate, but i did not see any mention of IETF. In any case,
IETF says they operate on:<br>
<br>
<blockquote>"rough consensus", meaning that a very large majority of
those who care must agree. The exact method of determining rough
consensus varies from Working Group to Working Group. <br>
<a href="http://www.ietf.org/tao.html">http://www.ietf.org/tao.html</a><br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I may be wrong, but i think Noisebridge consensus is more similar to
pure consensus-- NB does not practice "rough" consensus. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAAkY2sfmAH4sHuvw45B2CnuLsx5qAohA70A7mL06yL=Ss9kttA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>
PS please fix your mail client so you don't break threading<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Apologies. For my convenience, I do my list reading on the archive
page. When i reply, it's by way of copy-and-paste, hoping my subject
line will suffice for people to understand the related thread (some
people use email clients which do not display threading anyway). Is
there a way I can adhere to threading while not subscribing to all
emails? <br>
<br>
If necessary, for your convenience, I will switch to full email
mode, which will just give me some additional housecleaning chores
of periodically deleting the accumulated discuss emails. Thank
goodness for gmail's giant storage. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAAkY2sfmAH4sHuvw45B2CnuLsx5qAohA70A7mL06yL=Ss9kttA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>[1] And if you're going to selectively quote it, you can
just quote the whole damn thing, so that people don't have to
back-derive what I thought I was saying. </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
i quoted selectively, because i did not consider it polite to post a
4-page essay to Discuss. I expect motivated parties can make the
effort to click the link i provided. And because i had to type out
each word-- the copy of zipzine i had access to does not have
copyable text-- it's a jpg. <br>
<br>
Best Regards,<br>
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