<p dir="ltr">I'd rather that anyone who is going to be dismissive of my concerns call me The Rachel Who Shall Not Be Named, TRWSNBN for short, rather than a cozy little insider nickname. I am not part of your Noisebridge anymore, jim, and so it does not make sense for you to number me within its system.</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Nov 18, 2013 3:29 PM, "jim" <<a href="mailto:jim@well.com">jim@well.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
My recollection is that Rachel Hospodar<br>
has referred to herself as Rachel 2.0. If<br>
I'm mistaken, I apologize if that's what<br>
she wants.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Mon, 2013-11-18 at 15:05 -0800, Rachel McConnell wrote:<br>
> <headdesk/><br>
><br>
> Jim, just because I call myself Rachel1.0, does NOT MEAN Rachel Hospodar<br>
> is Rachel 2.0! She gets to decide herself what she wants to be called.<br>
> Jeez.<br>
><br>
> On 11/18/13 1:26 PM, jim wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > Rachel 2.0 is correct. I have dismissed her.<br>
> > I stand by my claim that she seems to have no<br>
> > idea what I've said, and because of my feeling<br>
> > I believe there is no point for me to engage<br>
> > discussion. It seems to me she is not open to<br>
> > my wrong thoughts or my right ones.<br>
> ><br>
> > As to that I replied to her privately, I<br>
> > prefaced my reply explaining that I did not<br>
> > want to burden the list: my wish to terminate<br>
> > discussion with her had no bearing on the<br>
> > other discussions in the thread.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > On Mon, 2013-11-18 at 12:56 -0800, rachel lyra hospodar wrote:<br>
> >> Here is an example of jim being dismissive on this thread. He sent it<br>
> >> to me privately and I was ignoring it. Full email incl below.<br>
> >><br>
> >>> It seems to me that you have no idea what I've said. This is my last<br>
> >> reply to you.<br>
> >><br>
> >> I have done my best to read his emails and articulate why my ideas are<br>
> >> so different than his, why his very words were so wildly<br>
> >> inappropriate. Given that Jim has previously hired me for work,<br>
> >> invited me to his house, and subsequently been a reluctant part of a<br>
> >> public discussion with me about Bad Touch And Respecting Boundaries, I<br>
> >> was perhaps expecting my viewpoint to be relevant.<br>
> >><br>
> >> The problem i see is that jim believes he is being misunderstood, when<br>
> >> in fact he is often being understood very well. I think he is<br>
> >> conflating his intention with his language and with his impact. They<br>
> >> are three very separate things. I repeatedly see him writing that he<br>
> >> is being misunderstood, and repeatedly read in his writing that he<br>
> >> believes others are overreacting and ignoring what he is writing.<br>
> >><br>
> >> I think that many people have a cognitive block around accepting that<br>
> >> the impact of their words or actions was very different than intended,<br>
> >> or that their stated intention is often directly contravened by their<br>
> >> words and actions.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Without the willingness to admit one's own need to change, there is no<br>
> >> real way to engage with people who have a problem with your behavior.<br>
> >><br>
> >> R.<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> ---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
> >> From: "jim" <<a href="mailto:jim@systemateka.com">jim@systemateka.com</a>><br>
> >> Date: Nov 16, 2013 3:48 PM<br>
> >> Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] anti-anonymity proposals<br>
> >> To: "rachel lyra hospodar" <<a href="mailto:rachelyra@gmail.com">rachelyra@gmail.com</a>><br>
> >> Cc:<br>
> >><br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> (replying personally so's not to burden<br>
> >>> the list)<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> It seems to me that you have no idea of what<br>
> >>> I've said. This is my last reply to you.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> On Sat, 2013-11-16 at 14:42 -0800, rachel lyra hospodar wrote:<br>
> >>>> Responses Inline. God save us all.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> On Nov 15, 2013 8:36 PM, "jim" <<a href="mailto:jim@systemateka.com">jim@systemateka.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> >>>>><br>
> >>>>><br>
> >>>>> There are so many problems with what you<br>
> >>>>>> have written that I honestly believe you need to hire someone<br>
> >> to<br>
> >>>> help<br>
> >>>>>> you grok what the fuck.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> I continue to believe you would benefit from seeking professional<br>
> >> help<br>
> >>>> on this matter.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>>> strong community. My view is that people have run<br>
> >>>>> to the community prematurely, to their own detriment.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> Have you thought to try, instead of defending your opinions, to<br>
> >> query<br>
> >>>> & seek to understand why people have felt that it is best to act<br>
> >> this<br>
> >>>> way?<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>>>><br>
> >>>>>> I came to Noisebridge and found a huge community of<br>
> >> technically<br>
> >>>>>> engaged wonderful hacker friends who bent over backwards to<br>
> >> teach<br>
> >>>> me<br>
> >>>>>> how to work in hardware, with zero social expectations or<br>
> >>>> assholery.<br>
> >>>>> JS: me, too.<br>
> >>>>><br>
> >>>>>> That place is gone.<br>
> >>>>> JS: I'm not sure, there are lots of very fine<br>
> >>>>> people still at noisebridge.<br>
> >>>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> I AM quite sure, thankyouverymuch, because the experiences I have<br>
> >> had<br>
> >>>> at Noisebridge over the last 2 years are so wildly different than<br>
> >> the<br>
> >>>> previous two. Perhaps if instead of dismissing this point of view<br>
> >> you<br>
> >>>> were to examine it and seek to understand why someone might hold<br>
> >> it,<br>
> >>>> you would be able to become less confused about why people are<br>
> >>>> FREAKING THE FUCK OUT about things like BEING GRABBED OR<br>
> >> ASSAULTED.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>>>> Perhaps 2169 will continue but a community where the old hands<br>
> >>>> present<br>
> >>>>>> think assault should be dealt with in isolation,<br>
> >>>>> JS: assault should not be dealt with in isolation.<br>
> >>>>><br>
> >>>>>> and the old hands absent feel entitled to weigh in against<br>
> >> reform<br>
> >>>>>> measures aimed at REDUCING INCIDENCES OF ASSAULT without<br>
> >>>> constructive<br>
> >>>>>> input, is no place I want to support.<br>
> >>>>> JS: I'm against formality in general; I'm for<br>
> >>>>> collaboration, affection, acceptance, mutual<br>
> >>>>> support; I think having policies is a dangerous<br>
> >>>>> practice, partly because the fact of the policy<br>
> >>>>> substitutes for understanding and action<br>
> >>>>> appropriate to situations, partly because the<br>
> >>>>> policy may, unfortunately, be seen as a<br>
> >>>>> substitute for one's own action and one's own<br>
> >>>>> sense of self-worth.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> Instead of undermining the efforts of people seeking to SECURE<br>
> >> THEIR<br>
> >>>> PERSONAL SAFETY you could try to work towards building the kind of<br>
> >>>> understanding you say should be used instead of policies... then<br>
> >>>> perhaps there wouldn't be so many people seeking to establish<br>
> >>>> policies.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> R.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>>><br>
> >>>>>> R.<br>
> >>>>>><br>
> >>>>>> On Nov 15, 2013 2:29 PM, "Snail" <<a href="mailto:snailtsunami@gmail.com">snailtsunami@gmail.com</a>><br>
> >> wrote:<br>
> >>>>>> On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 11:13 AM, jim<br>
> >>>> <<a href="mailto:jim@systemateka.com">jim@systemateka.com</a>><br>
> >>>>>> wrote:<br>
> >>>>>> As to females being harassed, for cases of<br>
> >>>>>> crude coppings of feels, I dislike taht female<br>
> >>>>>> turning to the community for support; I would<br>
> >>>>>> eagerly defend any female who hauled off and<br>
> >>>>>> slugged whoever copped a feel or to go get<br>
> >> some<br>
> >>>>>> friends and return to verbally educate the<br>
> >>>>>> offender: it's dis-empowering to perceive<br>
> >> one's<br>
> >>>>>> self as a victim and turn to a community for<br>
> >>>>>> support for what is an individual incident.<br>
> >>>>>><br>
> >>>>>> Whoa - whoa whoa whoa - whoaaaaa...<br>
> >>>>>><br>
> >>>>>> Time out - did you really just say that women who get<br>
> >>>> groped<br>
> >>>>>> ("cases of crude coppings of feels") should not ask<br>
> >> the<br>
> >>>>>> community to help them out? And you believe that it's<br>
> >>>>>> disempowering somehow??<br>
> >>>>>><br>
> >>>>>><br>
> >>>>>> And that people should just punch people or deal with<br>
> >> it<br>
> >>>> on<br>
> >>>>>> their own? Is this really what you're suggesting?<br>
> >>>>>><br>
> >>>>>><br>
> >>>>>><br>
> >>>>>> There will be no way fully to suppress<br>
> >> such<br>
> >>>>>> actions taken by horney and inconsiderate<br>
> >>>>>> personages, policies and rules and committee<br>
> >>>>>> resolutions aside (far, far aside, I hope).<br>
> >>>>>><br>
> >>>>>><br>
> >>>>>><br>
> >>>>>> I can't even. Here's a good way to suppress the<br>
> >> actions of<br>
> >>>>>> "horney" or inconsiderate people: never let them back<br>
> >> in<br>
> >>>>>> Noisebridge because that's a terrible excuse for their<br>
> >>>>>> actions!<br>
> >>>>>><br>
> >>>>>><br>
> >>>>>><br>
> >>>>>> Please ask yourself if you are prone to<br>
> >>>>>> express yourself when you believe you have the<br>
> >>>>>> "high ground" and can properly scold others.<br>
> >> I.e.,<br>
> >>>>>> are you living too much with anger?<br>
> >>>>>><br>
> >>>>>><br>
> >>>>>> With the rage of a thousand burning stars.<br>
> >>>>>><br>
> >>>>>><br>
> >>>>>> TO EVERYONE ELSE READING THIS - There are lots of<br>
> >> people<br>
> >>>> in<br>
> >>>>>> the community at large who will help you out if<br>
> >> someone is<br>
> >>>>>> creeping on you or worse, whether you are "taht<br>
> >> females"<br>
> >>>> or<br>
> >>>>>> just a plain ol' human being! Don't let what Jim says<br>
> >>>> dissuade<br>
> >>>>>> you from reporting harassment or assault or pointing<br>
> >> out<br>
> >>>>>> creepers! This is not an opinion everyone here<br>
> >> carries.<br>
> >>>> Please<br>
> >>>>>> don't ever feel like it's your fault or that you're<br>
> >>>> required<br>
> >>>>>> to punch people - it's a valid and rational response<br>
> >> to<br>
> >>>> remove<br>
> >>>>>> yourself from a dangerous situation and try to sort<br>
> >> things<br>
> >>>> out<br>
> >>>>>> later from a safe place rather than confront your<br>
> >>>>>> harasser/assaulter. If someone is creeping on you,<br>
> >> they<br>
> >>>> are<br>
> >>>>>> pretty much always creeping on OTHERS, too, so you are<br>
> >> not<br>
> >>>>>> alone or stuck in some isolated personal incident! And<br>
> >> as<br>
> >>>> a<br>
> >>>>>> community we can try to make Noisebridge a safer place<br>
> >> for<br>
> >>>>>> everyone.<br>
> >>>>>><br>
> >>>>>><br>
> >>>>>> Also, women really appreciate being called women and<br>
> >> not<br>
> >>>>>> "females". Do you go around saying "the males" when<br>
> >>>> referring<br>
> >>>>>> to men? Probably not.<br>
> >>>>>><br>
> >>>>>><br>
> >>>>>> Angry forever,<br>
> >>>>>> Snail<br>
> >>>>>><br>
> >>>>>><br>
> >>>>>> --<br>
> >>>>>> -Snailssnailssnailssnailssnailssnailssnails<br>
> >>>>>> ............. _@y<br>
> >>>>>> <a href="http://obamaischeckingyouremail.tumblr.com/" target="_blank">http://obamaischeckingyouremail.tumblr.com/</a><br>
> >>>>>><br>
> >>>>>><br>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________<br>
> >>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
> >>>>>> <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
> >>>>>><br>
> >>>> <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
> >>>>>><br>
> >>>>><br>
> >>>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> _______________________________________________<br>
> >> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
> >> <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
> >> <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
> > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
> > <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
> > <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
> ><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
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</blockquote></div>