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Just adding the [drama] tag back.<br>
--D<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/19/13, 10:44 AM, rachel lyra
hospodar wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAFp750u2z5gMEn1vKipTvYAq41x0xf_EBSHDU56PBtccASk4gg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<p dir="ltr">Perhaps you will also agree to stop sending me
private emails. I do not want you in my inbox.</p>
<p dir="ltr">I will take silence as assent.</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Nov 19, 2013 10:37 AM, "jim" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jim@well.com">jim@well.com</a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
<br>
Certainly. I agree.<br>
<br>
<br>
On Tue, 2013-11-19 at 09:54 -0800, rachel lyra hospodar wrote:<br>
> I'd rather that anyone who is going to be dismissive of
my concerns<br>
> call me The Rachel Who Shall Not Be Named, TRWSNBN for
short, rather<br>
> than a cozy little insider nickname. I am not part of
your Noisebridge<br>
> anymore, jim, and so it does not make sense for you to
number me<br>
> within its system.<br>
><br>
> On Nov 18, 2013 3:29 PM, "jim" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jim@well.com">jim@well.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
><br>
> My recollection is that Rachel Hospodar<br>
> has referred to herself as Rachel 2.0. If<br>
> I'm mistaken, I apologize if that's what<br>
> she wants.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On Mon, 2013-11-18 at 15:05 -0800, Rachel
McConnell wrote:<br>
> > <headdesk/><br>
> ><br>
> > Jim, just because I call myself Rachel1.0,
does NOT MEAN<br>
> Rachel Hospodar<br>
> > is Rachel 2.0! She gets to decide herself
what she wants to<br>
> be called.<br>
> > Jeez.<br>
> ><br>
> > On 11/18/13 1:26 PM, jim wrote:<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Rachel 2.0 is correct. I have
dismissed her.<br>
> > > I stand by my claim that she seems to
have no<br>
> > > idea what I've said, and because of my
feeling<br>
> > > I believe there is no point for me to
engage<br>
> > > discussion. It seems to me she is not
open to<br>
> > > my wrong thoughts or my right ones.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > As to that I replied to her
privately, I<br>
> > > prefaced my reply explaining that I did
not<br>
> > > want to burden the list: my wish to
terminate<br>
> > > discussion with her had no bearing on
the<br>
> > > other discussions in the thread.<br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > > On Mon, 2013-11-18 at 12:56 -0800,
rachel lyra hospodar<br>
> wrote:<br>
> > >> Here is an example of jim being
dismissive on this<br>
> thread. He sent it<br>
> > >> to me privately and I was ignoring
it. Full email incl<br>
> below.<br>
> > >><br>
> > >>> It seems to me that you have no
idea what I've said.<br>
> This is my last<br>
> > >> reply to you.<br>
> > >><br>
> > >> I have done my best to read his
emails and articulate why<br>
> my ideas are<br>
> > >> so different than his, why his very
words were so wildly<br>
> > >> inappropriate. Given that Jim has
previously hired me for<br>
> work,<br>
> > >> invited me to his house, and
subsequently been a<br>
> reluctant part of a<br>
> > >> public discussion with me about Bad
Touch And Respecting<br>
> Boundaries, I<br>
> > >> was perhaps expecting my viewpoint
to be relevant.<br>
> > >><br>
> > >> The problem i see is that jim
believes he is being<br>
> misunderstood, when<br>
> > >> in fact he is often being
understood very well. I think<br>
> he is<br>
> > >> conflating his intention with his
language and with his<br>
> impact. They<br>
> > >> are three very separate things. I
repeatedly see him<br>
> writing that he<br>
> > >> is being misunderstood, and
repeatedly read in his<br>
> writing that he<br>
> > >> believes others are overreacting
and ignoring what he is<br>
> writing.<br>
> > >><br>
> > >> I think that many people have a
cognitive block around<br>
> accepting that<br>
> > >> the impact of their words or
actions was very different<br>
> than intended,<br>
> > >> or that their stated intention is
often directly<br>
> contravened by their<br>
> > >> words and actions.<br>
> > >><br>
> > >> Without the willingness to admit
one's own need to<br>
> change, there is no<br>
> > >> real way to engage with people who
have a problem with<br>
> your behavior.<br>
> > >><br>
> > >> R.<br>
> > >><br>
> > >><br>
> > >> ---------- Forwarded message
----------<br>
> > >> From: "jim" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jim@systemateka.com">jim@systemateka.com</a>><br>
> > >> Date: Nov 16, 2013 3:48 PM<br>
> > >> Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss]
anti-anonymity<br>
> proposals<br>
> > >> To: "rachel lyra hospodar" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:rachelyra@gmail.com">rachelyra@gmail.com</a>><br>
> > >> Cc:<br>
> > >><br>
> > >>><br>
> > >>><br>
> > >>> (replying personally so's not
to burden<br>
> > >>> the list)<br>
> > >>><br>
> > >>> It seems to me that you have no
idea of what<br>
> > >>> I've said. This is my last
reply to you.<br>
> > >>><br>
> > >>><br>
> > >>><br>
> > >>> On Sat, 2013-11-16 at 14:42
-0800, rachel lyra hospodar<br>
> wrote:<br>
> > >>>> Responses Inline. God save
us all.<br>
> > >>>><br>
> > >>>> On Nov 15, 2013 8:36 PM,
"jim" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jim@systemateka.com">jim@systemateka.com</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>
> > >>>>><br>
> > >>>>><br>
> > >>>>> There are so many
problems with what you<br>
> > >>>>>> have written that I
honestly believe you need to hire<br>
> someone<br>
> > >> to<br>
> > >>>> help<br>
> > >>>>>> you grok what the
fuck.<br>
> > >>>><br>
> > >>>> I continue to believe you
would benefit from seeking<br>
> professional<br>
> > >> help<br>
> > >>>> on this matter.<br>
> > >>>><br>
> > >>>>> strong community. My
view is that people have run<br>
> > >>>>> to the community
prematurely, to their own detriment.<br>
> > >>>><br>
> > >>>> Have you thought to try,
instead of defending your<br>
> opinions, to<br>
> > >> query<br>
> > >>>> & seek to understand
why people have felt that it is<br>
> best to act<br>
> > >> this<br>
> > >>>> way?<br>
> > >>>><br>
> > >>>>>><br>
> > >>>>>> I came to
Noisebridge and found a huge community of<br>
> > >> technically<br>
> > >>>>>> engaged wonderful
hacker friends who bent over<br>
> backwards to<br>
> > >> teach<br>
> > >>>> me<br>
> > >>>>>> how to work in
hardware, with zero social<br>
> expectations or<br>
> > >>>> assholery.<br>
> > >>>>> JS: me, too.<br>
> > >>>>><br>
> > >>>>>> That place is gone.<br>
> > >>>>> JS: I'm not sure, there
are lots of very fine<br>
> > >>>>> people still at
noisebridge.<br>
> > >>>>><br>
> > >>>><br>
> > >>>> I AM quite sure,
thankyouverymuch, because the<br>
> experiences I have<br>
> > >> had<br>
> > >>>> at Noisebridge over the
last 2 years are so wildly<br>
> different than<br>
> > >> the<br>
> > >>>> previous two. Perhaps if
instead of dismissing this<br>
> point of view<br>
> > >> you<br>
> > >>>> were to examine it and seek
to understand why someone<br>
> might hold<br>
> > >> it,<br>
> > >>>> you would be able to become
less confused about why<br>
> people are<br>
> > >>>> FREAKING THE FUCK OUT about
things like BEING GRABBED<br>
> OR<br>
> > >> ASSAULTED.<br>
> > >>>><br>
> > >>>>>> Perhaps 2169 will
continue but a community where the<br>
> old hands<br>
> > >>>> present<br>
> > >>>>>> think assault
should be dealt with in isolation,<br>
> > >>>>> JS: assault should not
be dealt with in isolation.<br>
> > >>>>><br>
> > >>>>>> and the old hands
absent feel entitled to weigh in<br>
> against<br>
> > >> reform<br>
> > >>>>>> measures aimed at
REDUCING INCIDENCES OF ASSAULT<br>
> without<br>
> > >>>> constructive<br>
> > >>>>>> input, is no place
I want to support.<br>
> > >>>>> JS: I'm against
formality in general; I'm for<br>
> > >>>>> collaboration,
affection, acceptance, mutual<br>
> > >>>>> support; I think having
policies is a dangerous<br>
> > >>>>> practice, partly
because the fact of the policy<br>
> > >>>>> substitutes for
understanding and action<br>
> > >>>>> appropriate to
situations, partly because the<br>
> > >>>>> policy may,
unfortunately, be seen as a<br>
> > >>>>> substitute for one's
own action and one's own<br>
> > >>>>> sense of self-worth.<br>
> > >>>><br>
> > >>>> Instead of undermining the
efforts of people seeking to<br>
> SECURE<br>
> > >> THEIR<br>
> > >>>> PERSONAL SAFETY you could
try to work towards building<br>
> the kind of<br>
> > >>>> understanding you say
should be used instead of<br>
> policies... then<br>
> > >>>> perhaps there wouldn't be
so many people seeking to<br>
> establish<br>
> > >>>> policies.<br>
> > >>>><br>
> > >>>> R.<br>
> > >>>><br>
> > >>>>><br>
> > >>>>>> R.<br>
> > >>>>>><br>
> > >>>>>> On Nov 15, 2013
2:29 PM, "Snail"<br>
> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:snailtsunami@gmail.com">snailtsunami@gmail.com</a>><br>
> > >> wrote:<br>
> > >>>>>> On Fri,
Nov 15, 2013 at 11:13 AM, jim<br>
> > >>>> <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jim@systemateka.com">jim@systemateka.com</a>><br>
> > >>>>>> wrote:<br>
> > >>>>>>
As to females being harassed,<br>
> for cases of<br>
> > >>>>>>
crude coppings of feels, I dislike<br>
> taht female<br>
> > >>>>>>
turning to the community for<br>
> support; I would<br>
> > >>>>>>
eagerly defend any female who hauled<br>
> off and<br>
> > >>>>>>
slugged whoever copped a feel or to<br>
> go get<br>
> > >> some<br>
> > >>>>>>
friends and return to verbally<br>
> educate the<br>
> > >>>>>>
offender: it's dis-empowering to<br>
> perceive<br>
> > >> one's<br>
> > >>>>>>
self as a victim and turn to a<br>
> community for<br>
> > >>>>>>
support for what is an individual<br>
> incident.<br>
> > >>>>>><br>
> > >>>>>> Whoa -
whoa whoa whoa - whoaaaaa...<br>
> > >>>>>><br>
> > >>>>>> Time out -
did you really just say that<br>
> women who get<br>
> > >>>> groped<br>
> > >>>>>> ("cases of
crude coppings of feels") should<br>
> not ask<br>
> > >> the<br>
> > >>>>>> community
to help them out? And you believe<br>
> that it's<br>
> > >>>>>>
disempowering somehow??<br>
> > >>>>>><br>
> > >>>>>><br>
> > >>>>>> And that
people should just punch people or<br>
> deal with<br>
> > >> it<br>
> > >>>> on<br>
> > >>>>>> their own?
Is this really what you're<br>
> suggesting?<br>
> > >>>>>><br>
> > >>>>>><br>
> > >>>>>><br>
> > >>>>>>
There will be no way fully to<br>
> suppress<br>
> > >> such<br>
> > >>>>>>
actions taken by horney and<br>
> inconsiderate<br>
> > >>>>>>
personages, policies and rules and<br>
> committee<br>
> > >>>>>>
resolutions aside (far, far aside, I<br>
> hope).<br>
> > >>>>>><br>
> > >>>>>><br>
> > >>>>>><br>
> > >>>>>> I can't
even. Here's a good way to suppress<br>
> the<br>
> > >> actions of<br>
> > >>>>>> "horney"
or inconsiderate people: never let<br>
> them back<br>
> > >> in<br>
> > >>>>>>
Noisebridge because that's a terrible excuse<br>
> for their<br>
> > >>>>>> actions!<br>
> > >>>>>><br>
> > >>>>>><br>
> > >>>>>><br>
> > >>>>>>
Please ask yourself if you are<br>
> prone to<br>
> > >>>>>>
express yourself when you believe<br>
> you have the<br>
> > >>>>>>
"high ground" and can properly scold<br>
> others.<br>
> > >> I.e.,<br>
> > >>>>>>
are you living too much with anger?<br>
> > >>>>>><br>
> > >>>>>><br>
> > >>>>>> With the
rage of a thousand burning stars.<br>
> > >>>>>><br>
> > >>>>>><br>
> > >>>>>> TO
EVERYONE ELSE READING THIS - There are<br>
> lots of<br>
> > >> people<br>
> > >>>> in<br>
> > >>>>>> the
community at large who will help you out<br>
> if<br>
> > >> someone is<br>
> > >>>>>> creeping
on you or worse, whether you are<br>
> "taht<br>
> > >> females"<br>
> > >>>> or<br>
> > >>>>>> just a
plain ol' human being! Don't let what<br>
> Jim says<br>
> > >>>> dissuade<br>
> > >>>>>> you from
reporting harassment or assault or<br>
> pointing<br>
> > >> out<br>
> > >>>>>> creepers!
This is not an opinion everyone<br>
> here<br>
> > >> carries.<br>
> > >>>> Please<br>
> > >>>>>> don't ever
feel like it's your fault or that<br>
> you're<br>
> > >>>> required<br>
> > >>>>>> to punch
people - it's a valid and rational<br>
> response<br>
> > >> to<br>
> > >>>> remove<br>
> > >>>>>> yourself
from a dangerous situation and try<br>
> to sort<br>
> > >> things<br>
> > >>>> out<br>
> > >>>>>> later from
a safe place rather than confront<br>
> your<br>
> > >>>>>>
harasser/assaulter. If someone is creeping<br>
> on you,<br>
> > >> they<br>
> > >>>> are<br>
> > >>>>>> pretty
much always creeping on OTHERS, too,<br>
> so you are<br>
> > >> not<br>
> > >>>>>> alone or
stuck in some isolated personal<br>
> incident! And<br>
> > >> as<br>
> > >>>> a<br>
> > >>>>>> community
we can try to make Noisebridge a<br>
> safer place<br>
> > >> for<br>
> > >>>>>> everyone.<br>
> > >>>>>><br>
> > >>>>>><br>
> > >>>>>> Also,
women really appreciate being called<br>
> women and<br>
> > >> not<br>
> > >>>>>> "females".
Do you go around saying "the<br>
> males" when<br>
> > >>>> referring<br>
> > >>>>>> to men?
Probably not.<br>
> > >>>>>><br>
> > >>>>>><br>
> > >>>>>> Angry
forever,<br>
> > >>>>>> Snail<br>
> > >>>>>><br>
> > >>>>>><br>
> > >>>>>> --<br>
> > >>>>>>
-Snailssnailssnailssnailssnailssnailssnails<br>
> > >>>>>>
............. _@y<br>
> > >>>>>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://obamaischeckingyouremail.tumblr.com/"
target="_blank">http://obamaischeckingyouremail.tumblr.com/</a><br>
> > >>>>>><br>
> > >>>>>><br>
> > >>>>>><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> > >>>>>>
Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
> > >>>>>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
> > >>>>>><br>
> > >>>><br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss"
target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
> > >>>>>><br>
> > >>>>><br>
> > >>>>><br>
> > >>>><br>
> > >>><br>
> > >>><br>
> > >><br>
> > >><br>
> > >>
_______________________________________________<br>
> > >> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
> > >> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
> > >><br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss"
target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > >
_______________________________________________<br>
> > > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
> > > <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
> > ><br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss"
target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
> > ><br>
> >
_______________________________________________<br>
> > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
> > <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
> ><br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss"
target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss"
target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
<br>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a>
</pre>
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