<div dir="ltr">An example of an emotionally charged conflict:<div><br></div><div>It's not an consensus problem, or a thought crimes problem. It's a people problem.</div><div><br></div><div>See: <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2013-December/041270.html">https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2013-December/041270.html</a></div>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 19 December 2013 11:15, Al Sweigart <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:asweigart@gmail.com" target="_blank">asweigart@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Can you... give a number of people? Jim, this is a somewhat frustrating pattern with you. I'll copy and paste my part of my reply from our recent off-list email conversation because it fits here perfectly well: "<span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">I don't really know how to respond: Rumors of </span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">unspecified </span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">behavior of </span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">unspecified</span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"> people claiming to dictate </span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">unspecified</span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"> things to </span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">unspecified</span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"> others is about as vague as you can get."</span><div>
<span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Until we can start dealing with things in a concrete way, I'm just going to slap up a [citation needed] and move on.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">I'm not saying you're making this stuff up, but I need to get an accurate idea of who has problems, what the problems are, and how big they are. And I don't want to discourage you from speaking up: quite the opposite, I need you to tell me *more* details.</span></div>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">-Al</span></div></font></span></div><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><div class="gmail_extra">
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">
On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 10:42 AM, jim <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jim@well.com" target="_blank">jim@well.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Al,<br>
Your questions are good and thank you for<br>
your response.<br>
I will not name names, nor will I dig up<br>
info that might allow surmise, other than you<br>
and me. I admire you and your seeming pure-<br>
hearted tenacity. Mostly you've taken<br>
initiative to boot out the sleepers: kudos!<br>
Consider the ideas of associate members<br>
and closing hours and a council in light of<br>
the ideas of community collaboration and an<br>
open venue.<br>
There has been disaffection of various<br>
kinds ever since the build-out was somewhat<br>
done and decorations up.<br>
Please take my response as food for<br>
reflection, suggestions to balance the urge<br>
to create policy.<br>
<div><div><br>
<br>
On Thu, 2013-12-19 at 10:10 -0800, Al Sweigart wrote:<br>
> Jim, could you give some examples of which NB members left because of<br>
> rule makers rather than rule breakers? And can you say which rule<br>
> makers and what rules they had gripes about? (I don't mind if you name<br>
> me among them.)<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 9:46 AM, jim <<a href="mailto:jim@well.com" target="_blank">jim@well.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
> Trying to find community is a matter of bonding<br>
> with others, yes? Why not come and find others who<br>
> share your values and interests and, with respect<br>
> to others, live and let live?<br>
> One big and largely ignored fact of NB is that<br>
> there are several communities, such as the morning,<br>
> mid-day, evening, and late evening people as well<br>
> as those that center about electronics, sewing,<br>
> software, cooking, spacebridge, and other interests.<br>
> It's unfortunate for some, who are harmless or<br>
> who offer real benefits to some others, that the<br>
> evening crowd has a much greater affect than others<br>
> regarding NB governance, and one of the founding<br>
> principles has been to recognize those who, for<br>
> whatever reasons, do not or can not attend<br>
> The Tuesday Night Meeting.<br>
><br>
> You've exaggerated the bad features and skipped<br>
> the good features of Noisebridge. A couple of good<br>
> features are<br>
> * the openness provides a great place to meet people<br>
> that one otherwise would never meet.<br>
> * cross-fertilization of interests and ideas among<br>
> various interest groups.<br>
><br>
> Those who simply "hack" and avoid the fray are<br>
> affected by the decisions of those who kick up the<br>
> fray: e.g. associate members and closing hours among<br>
> other tho't crimes.<br>
> The attempts to impose rules to govern mostly<br>
> * mask individuals' behaviors (people can blind<br>
> themselves to reality with the comfort that there<br>
> are rules)<br>
> * and, it seems to me having watched NB from its<br>
> inception, like medicines' side effects, rules<br>
> generally are not worth the enforcement efforts.<br>
><br>
> It's frustrating to put up with the bad sides of<br>
> any community, but rules usually do not address many<br>
> aspects of reality that drive behavior; patience is<br>
> a tough road.<br>
> There have been individual, do-ocratic efforts to<br>
> address theft, sleeping, drug use, and other problems<br>
> that were successful and did not employ rules.<br>
><br>
> Most of the people I learned to love have left.<br>
> I guess that's partly a matter of natural attrition,<br>
> but I know for a fact that to some degree people have<br>
> abandoned NB because of the rule makers rather than<br>
> the rule breakers.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On Wed, 2013-12-18 at 19:41 -0800, Madelynn Martiniere wrote:<br>
> > Trying to find community is a thought crime? My bad, I<br>
> didn't realize<br>
> > the opinion of people who care about the future of the space<br>
> were so<br>
> > criminal.<br>
> ><br>
> > Considering this statement in your previous email:<br>
> > And let's be honest, Noisebridge in the last two years (or<br>
> even from the<br>
> > beginning) hasn't been the best establishment to go flaunt<br>
> around saying<br>
> > you're a member of. It's sort of like telling all your<br>
> friends you're a<br>
> > paying member of the festering techno trash dump and care<br>
> home for the<br>
> > socially dongz, while mice and rats run around inside your<br>
> sports blazer.<br>
> ><br>
> > Are you saying that it's not worth fixing because it's so<br>
> messed up?<br>
> > Because if so, then you're in no position to tell other<br>
> people not to<br>
> > try. If you're that sick and tired of hearing other people<br>
> try to fix<br>
> > a broken system, then I would suggest the alternative of<br>
> just not<br>
> > participating in any discussion about the space. Just hack<br>
> some<br>
> > things, and leave the rest of us to find productive<br>
> solutions.<br>
> ><br>
> > Cheers,<br>
> > Madelynn<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > ><br>
><br>
> > > Rubin Abdi<br>
> > > December 18, 2013 6:37 PM<br>
> > > I'm getting sick and tired of people thinking they can fix<br>
> > > Noisebridge.<br>
> > > How can we put an end to this issue?<br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > > _______________________________________________<br>
> > > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
> > > <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net" target="_blank">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
> > ><br>
> <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
> > ><br>
> ><br>
> > --<br>
> > Madelynn Martiniere<br>
> > Community Engineer. Entrepreneur. Geek.<br>
> ><br>
> > LinkedIn | Twitter | Email<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
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> > <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net" target="_blank">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
> ><br>
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