<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>+1 I find this idea most excellent.<br><br></div><div><br>On Jan 28, 2014, at 4:56 PM, Al Sweigart <<a href="mailto:asweigart@gmail.com">asweigart@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr">A few years ago I suggested making the space "members only" after midnight to reduce the number of people using Noisebridge as a crashpad. I think that's a good idea.<div class="gmail_extra">
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 4:25 PM, Dean Mao <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dean.mao@hackerdojo.com" target="_blank">dean.mao@hackerdojo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">We did some things at the Hacker Dojo that reduced the number of sleepers significantly. There's still 2 homeless that are sleeping at the Dojo but it's less than before. We disabled our free wifi at night and we made it a rule that only members can be present after 10pm. It wasn't strictly enforced or anything, but it still reduced the number of transients significantly.<div>
<br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 3:03 PM, Ronald Cotoni <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:setient@gmail.com" target="_blank">setient@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Maybe we should have a member party at night when we find some sleepers and confront them then and there. </div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><div><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 2:38 PM, Gregory Dillon <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gregorydillon@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregorydillon@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">If you offered a proposal that banned shooting heroin in the bathroom, it <i>could</i> pass.</div>
</div><div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">
On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 2:22 PM, Al Sweigart <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:asweigart@gmail.com" target="_blank">asweigart@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">This is precisely the policy gridlock that consensus puts Noisebridge in: there's no way consensus can be reached to say "sleeping is banned" or "sleeping is allowed". As I've said before, we've had incidents of people shooting heroin in the bathroom, but we don't have a policy that says you can't shoot heroin in the bathroom. As such, the issue never gets resolved and conflict continues.<div>
<br></div><div>Curtis, sleepers who are kicked out are never confronted about it at a meeting. They just come back to Noisebridge the next night to sleep. Perhaps we should have these individual confrontations at meetings.</div>
<span><font color="#888888">
<div><br></div><div>-Al</div></font></span></div><div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 1:40 PM, Gregory Dillon <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gregorydillon@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregorydillon@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">@Hannah Thank you, for your insight into where the community stands. polarized without a "bridge". I will withdraw the proposal</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">But still, correct me if I'm wrong, there is also no consensed policy against sleeping either The idea was to begin defining a policy that had safeguards from day one.</div>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div>On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 1:14 PM, Hannah Grimm <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dharlette@gmail.com" target="_blank">dharlette@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
</div><div><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">I'm very much opposed to your proposal as it's currently written; it reads as if you're saying that there should be alternatives to banning people for sleeping, but as we don't currently have a policy of auto-banning people for sleeping a specific policy of offering alternatives is unnecessary and only serves to be confusing and take up meeting time.</div>
<div><div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 12:05 PM, Gregory Dillon <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gregorydillon@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregorydillon@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><p dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">
<span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Hi List,</span></p>
<br style="font-size:16px"><span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"></span><p dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Al, let me think about your advice. I agree that my proposal is accurately described as vague. But that it is purposeful vague because that reflects reality. In life, there are some concepts that are vague but still express broad principles. The community view on sleeping at Noisebridge is currently vague but I think there are some broad principles of agreement.. </span></p>
<br style="font-size:16px"><span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"></span><p dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">I have tried to articulate what I believe is consensable: that many agree sleeping at Noisebride is taking up too much energy at meetings, that sleeping at Noisebridge is harming the space, but that gray areas exist, that some "sanctioning" event should be triggered by sleeping at Noisebridge, but the actual "sanction" should depend on the circumstances.</span></p>
<br style="font-size:16px"><span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"></span><p dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">My consensus proposal says that there should be some “sanction” for sleeping at Noisebridge, but that they should be effected only after considering the full circumstance, and therefore the range of “sanctions” should be broad. Maybe the sanction is only a verbal warning that people are going to be watching if your are sleeping too often. Or on the other end, it looks like your are not hacking but are are setting up residency there, our lease doesn’t allow that and that residency threatens the existence of Noisebridge, so a strict sanction is appropriate. </span></p>
<br style="font-size:16px"><span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"></span><p dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Al, I’ll consider your advice, but I would not want a specific actionable proposal that would act as a “sentencing guidelines” based on 30 different sleeping scenarios. I want to trust the wisdom of the group to implement an answer based on the broad principles that sleeping should have some response from the community, but the sanctions could vary widely. </span></p>
</div></div><div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 11:05 AM, Al Sweigart <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:asweigart@gmail.com" target="_blank">asweigart@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Hey Greg, the consensus proposal seems really vague: I'm not sure what the actual policy or guidelines it proposes are. Do you want to take that off the consensus item list and instead have it as a discussion item at the meeting? The consensus proposals are really for actionable and clearly-worded policy, but it looks more like you'd like to have a conversation on it to determine what the policy should be.</div>
<div><div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 4:39 PM, Gregory Dillon <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gregorydillon@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregorydillon@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">Thank you Monad,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">
<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">
I have a <a href="https://noisebridge.net/wiki/Current_Consensus_Items" target="_blank">consensus proposal</a> up for consideration that asks for circumspection and "slack" for people found sleeping when it is due. It is a purposefully a soft measure that I hope can get support from all ends of the spectrum on this issue. </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">Many members of the community will feel that my proposal does not go far enough to be a solution on sleeping at Noisebridge, and there may be laissez fairests who favor unrestrained sleep locations. But I think that is its strength. A workable compromise. I ask you to consider it as a way to address the sleeping issue, while being caring and considerate that people are finding it hard to find a place to lay their head down to sleep.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><br></div>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div>On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 4:17 PM, Paul Monad <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:immonad@yahoo.com" target="_blank">immonad@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
</div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div><div style="font-size:14pt;font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif"><div style="font-style:normal;font-size:18.6667px;background-color:transparent;font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif">
The only tool we have at the moment is: personally wake them, ask if they are sponsored then ... , or asking them to leave and come to the next meeting. Jake pointed out certain individuals should be given slack for a short time. Circumspection and discretion is mandatory.</div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:18.6667px;background-color:transparent;font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif"><br></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-size:18.6667px;background-color:transparent;font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif">
They invariably say they were asleep for a very short
time. If left alone, is soon back asleep.<br></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-size:18.6667px;background-color:transparent;font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif"><br></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-size:18.6667px;background-color:transparent;font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif">
As many as possible should speak directly with the problem individuals because this is a community of doers. It shouldn't be the efforts of the few. Perception is important.</div><div style="font-style:normal;font-size:18.6667px;background-color:transparent;font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif">
<br></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-size:18.6667px;background-color:transparent;font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif">Anyone who wants to participate but have transportation problems please
contact me.<br></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-size:18.6667px;background-color:transparent;font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif"><br></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-size:18.6667px;background-color:transparent;font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif">
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<br></blockquote></div><span><font color="#888888"><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br>Let's stay in touch. Greg
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br>Let's stay in touch. Greg
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br></div></div><span><font color="#888888">Ronald Cotoni<div>Systems Engineer</div>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br></div></div><span><font color="#888888">Dean Mao<br><a href="mailto:dean.mao@hackerdojo.com" target="_blank">dean.mao@hackerdojo.com</a><br>
Come visit us, we love new people!<br><a href="http://www.hackerdojo.com" target="_blank">www.hackerdojo.com</a>
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