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<font color="#500050" face="arial, sans-serif">This is the third time I am trying to get this message through moderation. I guess my TONE was bad last time...</font></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#500050" face="arial, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#500050" face="arial, sans-serif">This is going to be very hard for many of you to digest, very long winded and I am probably burning all of my social capital, but here we go. If your mind is made up already about the validity of feminist claims maybe you should avoid reading this. Except you Lupita, you asked for this.</font></div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#500050" face="arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#500050" face="arial, sans-serif"> If you aren't sure that what feminist preach is the gospel by all means dive in. </font></div>
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</span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333015441895px">"Like I'm not black, so I know I can never be a black panther, and that is okay, even though I support many of the ideals of the black power movement and try to be as supportive of black people as I can. "</span><br style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333015441895px">
</div><div><font color="#500050" face="arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div></div></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#500050" face="arial, sans-serif">This is where we differ in opinion you think that militant racists groups are perfectly ok because they target whites instead of blacks. (You probably think that black people cannot be racist) No group that advocates violence or exclusion on the basis of how a person was born is ok. Period. Not agreeing with the New Black Panthers doesn't make you racist no matter how much they would like to convince you it does. Being born a certain color doesn't make you a racist either but that's another discussion altogether.</font></div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#500050" face="arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#500050" face="arial, sans-serif">Actually it's the analogy doesn't even hold. Why? Because when white people asked how they could support the (original BP not the NBP that the ADL defines as a hate group) Black Panthers they were told they could be White Panthers. This is a moniker that isn't inherently a subclass to the Black Panthers the way you think men should be in the feminism movement.</font></div>
<div class="im" style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#500050" face="arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#500050" face="arial, sans-serif">You act as if feminists don't argue among themselves about the feminist/ally debate. (So much for feminism isn't a monolith) So every feminist that thinks a man should be allowed to refer to himself as one are also all misogynist assholes too. Even the women? Or are they actually allowed to disagree with you? Are they No True Feminists?</font></div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(80,0,80)"><div><font color="#500050" face="arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333015441895px">"Therefore, only women can truly be involved in the movement, and non-women can best help out by being supportive but leaving the main space for women."</span><br>
</div></div></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><div><font color="#500050" face="arial, sans-serif">So men should be seen but not heard. Where have I heard that before? But why is that so hard to digest and accept right? I should be happy to be told to sit in the corner and look pretty while to women make all of the important decisions. At least that way I avoid being labeled a misogynist for having opinions. </font></div>
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</span></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial,sans-serif">Women are not the same as black people.(unless you are a black woman) They are not oppressed as a class despite what patriarchy theory states. There are individual instances of oppression.</span><font color="#500050" face="arial, sans-serif"> Not enough to quality for (or need) a liberation movement. They were never slaves to begin with. Women have not suffered the way african americans have. The suffering of women does not even compare to the suffering of african americans. If you want to see what a society that is stacked against you looks like look at how America treated blacks in the 50's. Less so today but there are still vestiges of it left over. Attempts to co-op african-american movements cheapens their legitimate concerns.</font><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333015441895px"><br>
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<div><br></div><div><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333015441895px">"The thing where modern feminism went wrong is when they started talking about equality. I don't want equality, I was liberation. Equality means being like men, and I kind of don't want women to rape and murder at the same rate as men."</span><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333015441895px"><br>
</span></div><div><br></div></div></div><div class="im" style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#500050" face="arial, sans-serif"><b>THIS IS THE BIGOTED SEXISM THAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH FEMINISM. </b></font></div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#500050" face="arial, sans-serif"><b><br></b></font></div></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#500050">I bet you loved the scum manifesto...(ok that probably isn't true...I hope)</font></div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#500050" face="arial, sans-serif">Your premise simply isn't true. </font><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial,sans-serif">Lets look closer and actually think about it and test it</span><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial,sans-serif">. TBH </span><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial,sans-serif">I was so hoping someone would repeat this since I have heard it several times around noisebridge. Usually with a group feminists yelling down any dissent en mass.</span></div>
<div class="im" style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#500050" face="arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><div><span style="color:rgb(77,77,77);font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13px;line-height:14px">"Currently, in statistical data such as that gathered by the CDC, for whom feminist Mary Koss acts as a consultant, such men are not considered rape victims, even if they have been forced into sex. Previous year data in their latest NISVS showed an equal number of male and female victims of sex obtained through force, threats or incapacitation (and attempts, which they did not separate out in either case), and a significant perpetration rate among women, however, Koss (and thus, the CDC) does not consider a woman forcing a man to have heterosexual sex to be rape. " </span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(77,77,77);font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13px;line-height:14px"><br></span></div><div><font color="#4d4d4d" face="Helvetica Neue, Arial, Helvetica, Geneva, sans-serif"><span style="line-height:14px"><a href="http://owningyourshit.blogspot.com/2014/02/whispers-of-dissent-within-feminist.html" target="_blank" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">http://owningyourshit.blogspot.com/2014/02/whispers-of-dissent-within-feminist.html</a></span></font></div>
</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#4d4d4d" face="Helvetica Neue, Arial, Helvetica, Geneva, sans-serif"><span style="line-height:14px"><br></span></font></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">
<font color="#4d4d4d" face="Helvetica Neue, Arial, Helvetica, Geneva, sans-serif"><span style="line-height:14px"><br></span></font></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#4d4d4d" face="Helvetica Neue, Arial, Helvetica, Geneva, sans-serif"><span style="line-height:14px"><a href="http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/NISVS_Report2010-a.pdf" target="_blank" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/NISVS_Report2010-a.pdf</a></span><br>
</font></div></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#4d4d4d" face="Helvetica Neue, Arial, Helvetica, Geneva, sans-serif"><span style="line-height:14px">Here is some actual data.</span></font></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">
<font color="#4d4d4d" face="Helvetica Neue, Arial, Helvetica, Geneva, sans-serif"><span style="line-height:14px"><br></span></font></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#4d4d4d" face="Helvetica Neue, Arial, Helvetica, Geneva, sans-serif"><span style="line-height:14px">TLDR</span></font></div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#4d4d4d" face="Helvetica Neue, Arial, Helvetica, Geneva, sans-serif"><span style="line-height:14px">40 percent of rapes are committed by women. That whole women = innocence narrative seems to be showing cracks.</span></font></div>
<div><font color="#4d4d4d" face="'Helvetica Neue', Arial, Helvetica, Geneva, sans-serif"><span style="line-height:14px"><br></span></font></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#4d4d4d" face="Helvetica Neue, Arial, Helvetica, Geneva, sans-serif"><span style="line-height:14px">That is not even going into the stigma associated with men reporting any kind (In before that's the Patriarchy's fault)</span></font></div>
<div class="im" style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#4d4d4d" face="Helvetica Neue, Arial, Helvetica, Geneva, sans-serif"><span style="line-height:14px"><br></span></font></div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#4d4d4d" face="Helvetica Neue, Arial, Helvetica, Geneva, sans-serif"><span style="line-height:14px">Not to mention that the conviction rate of men accused of rape is higher than that of murder. According the the DOJ crime statistics. (Sorry no link on that you can google it though right?) You think there might be any bias against men accused of rape? No there's no way that could be true. Right?</span></font></div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#4d4d4d" face="Helvetica Neue, Arial, Helvetica, Geneva, sans-serif"><span style="line-height:14px"><br></span></font></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">
<font color="#4d4d4d" face="Helvetica Neue, Arial, Helvetica, Geneva, sans-serif"><span style="line-height:14px">And the conviction rate of women is artificially depressed. </span></font></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">
<font color="#4d4d4d" face="Helvetica Neue, Arial, Helvetica, Geneva, sans-serif"><span style="line-height:14px"><a href="http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2144002" target="_blank" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2144002</a></span></font></div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></div></div><div class="im" style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#4d4d4d" face="Helvetica Neue, Arial, Helvetica, Geneva, sans-serif"><span style="line-height:14px">I'm not sure how much those details change the numbers but but I think that brings things a lot closer to equity.</span></font></div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#4d4d4d" face="Helvetica Neue, Arial, Helvetica, Geneva, sans-serif"><span style="line-height:14px"><br></span></font></div></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">
<font color="#4d4d4d" face="Helvetica Neue, Arial, Helvetica, Geneva, sans-serif"><span style="line-height:14px">And lets not get into the false accusations argument. Though that is also misrepresented by feminism. (We actually can go into it if you want but my first link does touch on that a bit)</span></font></div>
<div class="im" style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"><div><font color="#4d4d4d" face="'Helvetica Neue', Arial, Helvetica, Geneva, sans-serif"><span style="line-height:14px"><br></span></font></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">
<font color="#4d4d4d" face="Helvetica Neue, Arial, Helvetica, Geneva, sans-serif"><span style="line-height:14px"> </span></font><span style="line-height:14px;color:rgb(77,77,77);font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,sans-serif">So sure, men commit more rapes* </span></div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#4d4d4d" face="Helvetica Neue, Arial, Helvetica, Geneva, sans-serif"><span style="line-height:14px">(*for lopsided misandric definitions of rape)</span></font></div></div>
</span><span style="border-collapse:collapse;font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div><span style="border-collapse:collapse;font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></span></div><div><span style="border-collapse:collapse;font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br>
</span></div><div><span style="border-collapse:collapse;font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">What about the greater narrative that women = innocence? Or are somehow inherently morally superior on thanks to their superior genetalia. (Really they are great though I think we can all find common ground there at least)</span></div>
</span></div><div><span style="border-collapse:collapse;font-size:13px"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">Who do you think is more likely to engage in child abuse? Women, being 3 times more likely to perpetuate child abuse according to federal hhs studies. (Admittedly a little dated being from 2001 but there is no reason to suggest that this trend is not still present.)</span><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">
<a href="http://archive.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/pubs/cm01/cm01.pdf" target="_blank" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)"><font color="#1155cc">http://archive.acf.hhs.gov/</font>programs/cb/pubs/cm01/cm01.pdf</a><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">
<br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">How about domestic abuse. That should be a grand slam for feminism right? Well not so fast... </div></span><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><a href="http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm" target="_blank" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm</a></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:medium;font-family:Times">"This bibliography examines 286 scholarly investigations: 221 empirical studies and 65 reviews and/or analyses, which demonstrate that women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their relationships with their spouses or male partners. The aggregate sample size in the reviewed studies exceeds 371,600. "</span><font color="#333333" face="Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif"><span><br>
</span></font></div><div><span style="font-size:medium;font-family:Times"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:medium;font-family:Times">*Whistles. Man that is a whole LOT of science that disproves that premise.</span></div>
<div><span style="border-collapse:collapse;font-size:13px"><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">The difference between you and me is that <span style="color:rgb(77,77,77);font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,sans-serif;line-height:14px"> I wont try to paint all women as inherently</span><span style="color:rgb(77,77,77);font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,sans-serif;line-height:14px"> dangerous because of a statistic. </span><span style="color:rgb(77,77,77);font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,sans-serif;line-height:14px">Statistics dont fucking work that way! </span><span style="color:rgb(77,77,77);font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,sans-serif;line-height:14px">I don't try to paint a picture where I deny people of my gender are capable of doing evil acts. </span></div>
<div><font color="#4d4d4d" face="'Helvetica Neue', Arial, Helvetica, Geneva, sans-serif"><span style="line-height:14px"><br></span></font></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#4d4d4d" face="Helvetica Neue, Arial, Helvetica, Geneva, sans-serif"><span style="line-height:14px">It is misandry to try and tie rape and murder to Masculinity wholesale. What purpose does associating rape to manhood serve? Who does all the FUD help?</span></font></div>
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</span></font></div><div>"How is that a hard concept to respect, unless you keep to your male socialization and demand to enter every space women try to create, and can't accept the word "no" from women. In which case, you shouldn't be welcomed because you have alternative motives that don't involve helping women."<font color="#4d4d4d" face="Helvetica Neue, Arial, Helvetica, Geneva, sans-serif"><span style="line-height:14px"><br>
</span></font></div><div><br></div></div></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">I highlight how you managed to imply I was a rapist (or at least a little rapey) there by saying I didn't understand what no means (specifically from women). I also noticed that subtle invocation of the "No means No" campaign. Implying that I am a rapist still doesn't mean I'm wrong. It is a good sign that your argument holds no weight. If you are resorting to that type of chilling effect invoking tactics then you must be running scared.</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">As far as men demanding to enter a female dominated sphere of thought (feminism is not a space) goes. It is incongruent to simultaneously hold the idea that men who want to be included equally in feminism are immoral and have questionable motives but women pushing their influence into male dominated spheres of influence are not immoral. The two actions are identical. Either it's ok for either sex to enter thought spaces dominated by the other sex. Or it's not. If you believe it isn't (as you have stated) then to be consistent with your logic you have to argue that women pushing their way into male dominated fields is equally immoral because those men have the right to define their own organization. Obviously that position would cause further cognitive dissonance since that is action is the primary imputus of feminism. So the latter must be true and you simply hold two contradicing opinions on this matter.</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">That's the problem I have with the men can't be feminist idea. It leads to a contradiction of either feminism or itself. Meanwhile (assuming you believe patriarchy theory) you are telling the male victims of patriarchic oppresion that they should not be allowed any say in how that they deal with that oppression. Unless you hold the view that men are (on an individual basis) persecuting themselves instead of being persecuted by men as a whole. This view seems patently ridiculous to me though.</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#500050" face="arial, sans-serif">Also note I did not criticize your use of the word male. I did not say you were reducing men to the status of an animal. You did just that then another person dared use the word female a while back.</font></div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#500050" face="arial, sans-serif">I certainly DON"T identify as a feminist so symbolically stripping me of the title doesn't phase me one whit. Go ahead, call me a misogynist rape apologist. I am not going to be deterred or intimidated by your social terrorism. It doesn't make me wrong one bit and intelligent people will judge my arguments on their merits not on the basis of what ideological tribe I belong to or how pissed off I am when I type these responses. </font></div>
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<font color="#500050" face="arial, sans-serif">I am a humanist who believes in equality. I dont believe in</font><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial,sans-serif"> placing one group above reproach in the interest of revenge for past sexism and discrimination.</span><font color="#500050" face="arial, sans-serif"> </font></div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#500050" face="arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#500050" face="arial, sans-serif">I have placed my life the line to prevent kidnappings, stop date rape, and fight (physically and verbally) rapists and I have the scars to prove it. But you keep on criticizing people on the internet for their word choice or jokes. I'm sure it helps.</font></div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></div>
</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#500050" face="arial, sans-serif">Oh and quoting a statistic to a rape victim (whoever it was that did that a while back) about how rape victims are more likely to perpetrate rape </font><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial,sans-serif"> is a form of victim shaming and something that rapist have been known to say to rape victims in an attempt to cause a nervous breakdown (I suspect to make them less believable witnesses.) You are telling them they are going to become what they hate more than anything else in the world. But I guess being right in an internet argument is worth it.</span></div>
</span></div></span></div>-- <br><a href="http://www.linkreincarnate.com" target="_blank">www.linkreincarnate.com</a><br><div style="display:inline"></div>
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