<p dir="ltr">Ari said you were the somethingest tech writer dude she knows. I was giving an example of the somethingest tech dude I know since I don't really know many tech writer dudes.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Giving a positive example doesn't mean you are involved. I am pointing to someone whose behavior I like in case there is anyone out there who gives a shit about my opinion on behavior and would like a positive role model.</p>
<p dir="ltr">If it becomes in your head a statement of 'praveen is better than al' then let me edit that for you: 'praveen is better than most dudes at making me feel welcomed and valued, and would probably talk to an interested party about how he interacts if that party wanted to learn more.'</p>
<p dir="ltr">It was about praveen, and not you.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Are you interested in adressing the other parts of my message, where I admit to my own coded sexism, suggest we are all guilty of such (including praveen, if you like), and suggest that we must all be able to examine this?</p>
<p dir="ltr">No?</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mar 27, 2014 10:46 AM, "Al Sweigart" <<a href="mailto:asweigart@gmail.com">asweigart@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Here's the thing. Rachel can say this when talking about Praveen: "<span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">Praveen is an example of a tech dude who makes lots of efforts to support women n queers in his work. </span><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">I suppose he's not a writer, which is a shame, since I think he's less likely to code sexism into his work because he is actively, regularly, and publicly engaged in self-examination around these issues, and makes clear and visible efforts to own his mistakes."</span><div>
<span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">...obviously referring to the programming books for kids I write. Now if I say "Rachel is saying I'm a tech dude who doesn't support women, whose books have coded sexism, and doesn't make efforts to own his mistakes", Rachel will respond with "I didn't say anything about you Al, I was just saying Praveen was less likely to do those things."</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">But when I say, "</span><font face="arial, sans-serif">Again, I am sincere when I want to hear out people who disagree with me. It can be easy to read sarcasm or insincerity into text, so I'm saying that as plainly as possible. I am not paying "lip service". I have my own views and will probably disagree with you, but I don't want anyone to confuse "I disagree with you" with "you can't speak, shut up"." Rachel turns that into "Al has called me confused." and uses it against me as an example of my coded sexist language.</font></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 1:13 PM, rachel lyra hospodar <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rachelyra@gmail.com" target="_blank">rachelyra@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir="ltr">Thanks for bringing this up, Ari. I haven't explored the concepts behind this too much on-list, but I will take a little time to now. </p>
<p dir="ltr">When existing in a sexist society, we are all grounded in sexist brainwashing. I don't think that Al is necessarily intentionally sexist,</p>
<p dir="ltr">But his behavior furthers my belief that we must not simply seek to brand creepy creepers with a scarlet C and consider the problem solved. 'Ending' sexism is far more complex than that. Deconstructing problems that are embedded in the social matrix from whence we all spring necessitates examining the ways that they are embedded in each of us.</p>
<p dir="ltr">He has called me confused, and Naomi angry.</p>
<p dir="ltr">This is not a way to have a productive discussion that furthers the cause of equality among the sexes, from a context of a society which paints women with legitimate concerns as confused and angry.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Is it possible for women to be legitimately confused and angry? Absolutely. Is it legitimate for someone with whom they disagree to dismiss their concerns using this language? Well I don't think it furthers the cause of equality. If anyone has a goal of reducing sexism they must look within themselves first and outside second. Confused and angry are to hysterical as thug is to n*****r. (Ref. Richard Sherman debacle, more information available upon request)</p>
<p dir="ltr">If you want I can share some anecdotes of times when I have been unintentionally sexist in running a construction crew. The realizations that those experiences led me to fifteen years ago are a deeply embedded part of my world understanding to this day.</p>
<p dir="ltr">And why yes, I do think fifteen years of deep examination of my own unintended and internalized sexism gives me a solid platform from which to ignore anyone who tells me I am confused simply because I disagree with them.</p>
<p dir="ltr">I will actually take a moment to say here that Praveen is an example of a tech dude who makes lots of efforts to support women n queers in his work. I suppose he's not a writer, which is a shame, since I think he's less likely to code sexism into his work because he is actively, regularly, and publicly engaged in self-examination around these issues, and makes clear and visible efforts to own his mistakes.</p>
<p dir="ltr">What a concept.</p><span><font color="#888888">
<p dir="ltr">R.</p></font></span><div><div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mar 27, 2014 6:21 AM, "Ari Lacenski" <<a href="mailto:alacenski@gmail.com" target="_blank">alacenski@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">The most painful thing about this thread is watching Rachel insinuate that Al's disagreement and rhetoric are grounded in his supposed sexism. <div><br></div><div>Rachel, the dick jokes are totally unnecessary. I know of no male tech writer who makes more of an effort to support women-'n-queers in his work. Can you possibly move on?<div>
<br></div><div>Ari</div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 4:29 PM, rachel lyra hospodar <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rachelyra@gmail.com" target="_blank">rachelyra@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir="ltr">Let's be crystal clear - I am not confused.</p>
<p dir="ltr">I have not confused 'I disagree with you' with anything else.</p>
<p dir="ltr">I am trying to communicate with you that many people hear your stance as 'your disagreements are irrelevant'.</p>
<p dir="ltr">If my tone is valid then yours is too, I see no way around it. I am scrupulously polite in a precise correlation to whether I find myself in a space where I feel scrupulously respected.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Perhaps instead of telling me how you do respect me, you might listen to some advice on how to behave respectfully. I know, I haven't been behaving perfectly. It is an attempt to demonstrate to you the precise impact of your historic behavior of same nature.</p>
<p dir="ltr">We can continue to have a dick jousting contest around whose opinion is more valid but I have to warn you - i am a cyborg. mine is a strap on that I researched heavily and had to wade through a great deal of bigotry to get, so it will probably outlast yours.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Yes, that was a metaphor. No, it was not scrupulously respectful. The fire metaphor was, but you didn't even respond to it so I am trying different tactics to Hack You. I want to install this Empathy Module but I can't find the slot. I'll just leave it on the table here, feel free to ask for documentation if you decide you want to use it.</p>
<span><font color="#888888">
<p dir="ltr">R.</p></font></span><div><div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mar 26, 2014 1:06 PM, "Al Sweigart" <<a href="mailto:asweigart@gmail.com" target="_blank">asweigart@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">It was mostly the "Father Al" cracks. Maybe I should just lighten up though, but that and the other stuff kind of stung.<div><br></div><div>Just to reassure you Rachel, I am well aware of the bullshit that women who speak up have to put up with. I'm not trying to tone police you, but when I say your words hurt me I'm telling you how you've made me feel and that I take you just as seriously whether or not you are mocking me, so please don't go the mocking route.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Again, I am sincere when I want to hear out people who disagree with me. It can be easy to read sarcasm or insincerity into text, so I'm saying that as plainly as possible. I am not paying "lip service". I have my own views and will probably disagree with you, but I don't want anyone to confuse "I disagree with you" with "you can't speak, shut up".</div>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 3:35 PM, rachel lyra hospodar <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rachelyra@gmail.com" target="_blank">rachelyra@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir="ltr">It's mean spirited to say I respect you even though I completely disagree with everything you are doing, and you categorically dismiss all concerns while paying them lip service?</p>
<p dir="ltr">It's sarcastic for me to describe things as I see them? How else will we reach an understanding if you do not seek to understand my point of view? I seek to understand yours as well.</p>
<p dir="ltr">My research indicates there is no way to discuss difficult topics without seeming to be difficult to someone who disagrees with you. Without using humor it comes off angry, with humor it comes off sarcastic. This is the abyss at the bottom of Tone Argument Canyon... there is categorically no appropriate way to disagree while female (kind of like driving while black) without being an Obnoxious Strident Person.</p>
<p dir="ltr"> This is why it is so important to construct decision making systems that accommodate the fact that people disagree, rather than to attempt to create a space where nobody disagrees - I call that an echo chamber.</p>
<span><font color="#888888">
<p dir="ltr">R.</p></font></span><div><div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mar 26, 2014 11:59 AM, "Al Sweigart" <<a href="mailto:asweigart@gmail.com" target="_blank">asweigart@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr"><div>Rachel, do you think your mean-spirited sarcasm is inviting to dialog? Are you interested in having a dialog?</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 2:40 PM, rachel lyra hospodar <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rachelyra@gmail.com" target="_blank">rachelyra@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir="ltr">I wonder, Al, if you have any thoughts on the ideological tension between your statements 'community buy in is key' and 'not everyone will be completely satisfied'</p>
<p dir="ltr">One thing 100 percent consensus neatly solves is taking the factionalism out of who gets to have their way. Everyone does, not just whoever is in power.</p>
<p dir="ltr">You are clearly delineating that you are in power here, Al. Is your goal to use your power to get your way? From my point of view, that is what you are trying to do here. This could be out of ignorance, blindness, stubbornness, or a willfull belief that Father Al knows best.</p>
<p dir="ltr">You'll forgive me for finding the most hope in believing you to be, in this case, ignorant and stubborn.... since I sure don't believe in a paternalistic approach to life. I don't think Father Al knows best. I do respect you for trying, but call me crazy optimistic for hoping for you to grow, change. Maybe you should try putting up signs for meth like you did for graffiti... that worked, right?</p>
<p dir="ltr">I gotta take a break now, kids, I just admitted in public to respecting Al.</p><span><font color="#888888">
<p dir="ltr">R.</p></font></span><div><div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mar 26, 2014 11:30 AM, "Al Sweigart" <<a href="mailto:asweigart@gmail.com" target="_blank">asweigart@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Madelynn and Tom articulated this better last night at the meeting, but I want to reiterate for people just following the list that these changes are not out of nowhere. We have been talking with individuals about how to fix Noisebridge's problems well before the election. Community buy-in is key. I don't want to dismiss the election results out of hand; it's not fair to the members who voted after being told the board would take an active hand at space improvements. This also doesn't mean the board is accountable to no one, but it does mean that not everyone will be completely satisfied with decisions being made (just like any group of people).</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 2:16 PM, rachel lyra hospodar <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rachelyra@gmail.com" target="_blank">rachelyra@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir="ltr">I would like to apologize, it appears I was mistaken. It seems that the list was not trimmed, but that discussion of these fundamental changes did not take place online any place I am able to find, follow, or see, as a former board member, council member, member member, throbbing gristle member.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Community buy in for shifts is really key, people. The bigger the shift the more important this piece of the puzzle is. </p>
<p dir="ltr">It's never too late to work towards consensus.</p><span><font color="#888888">
<p dir="ltr">R.</p></font></span><div><div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mar 26, 2014 6:08 AM, "rachel lyra hospodar" <<a href="mailto:rachelyra@gmail.com" target="_blank">rachelyra@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<p dir="ltr">I think it's interesting that sometime in the last month or so, someone has for the first time since i was added in 2010, gone through the board email list and trimmed out former board members. </p>
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