<div dir="ltr"><div>YES! Hackerdom engaging in "Social Hacking" is a TOTALLY EXCELLENT path as it solves many problems and does not endanger the survival of the spaces. <br><br></div>Let's make no mistake about our ethics=- We're NOT being deprecating of anyone if we are constrained on what can be done in the NB space itself. I will not play games here- this is a case of protecting NB while being a force for good. If we lose NB in trying - no one gains- if we build oh- a SRO under our non-profit umbrella? Yeah- we may have something,,,<br>
<br>My safe parking for now? However NB consenses on creating other spaces for eliminating social ills- will keep us on the side of Excellent Karma:> <br><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div>Oren Beck<br><br>
816.632.3695</div>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 6:50 AM, Ronald Cotoni <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:setient@gmail.com" target="_blank">setient@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">What I think is that while Noisebridge isn't the place for that (necessarily), I think we can either help create a place that is or direct people to appropriate places. That is why Naomi suggested we reach out to local hostels/SROs in the hood to see what we can do to help people. We are not equipped to deal with every situation but we are smart enough to find/create resources that are!</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><div><div class="h5"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 3:12 PM, Praveen Sinha <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dmhomee@gmail.com" target="_blank">dmhomee@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">I actually am too modest to talk about such things publicly (and for other reason) :-D<br></div><div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 3:05 PM, Will Sargent <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:will.sargent@gmail.com" target="_blank">will.sargent@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">I'm sure Praveen is just too modest to talk about how he volunteers up his couch and kitchen and lets people use his apartment as a homeless shelter.</div>
<div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">
On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Ceren Ercen <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ceren@ercen.com" target="_blank">ceren@ercen.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Mr Rodgers wouldn't put these people up in a space that doesn't belong to him. </div><div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 4:58 PM, Praveen Sinha <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dmhomee@gmail.com" target="_blank">dmhomee@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div><RANT><br></div><div>I got a couple of emails off-list questioning my judgment on this, so I thought I would follow up with some other thoughts I had...<br>
<br></div>The other night, I was walking back from consensus in the cold downpouring rain. I could see my breath and I was soaked. I know for east coasters, this mild california weather is nothing, but the fact is, SF get's COLD. It was COLD and WET. I saw at least one person huddling in a corner trying to stay dry. I looked at him and remembered the times when I was that cold and hungry and alone -- I was miserable, it was the worst lonliest feeling in the world, and the only thing I wanted was to be in a warm place.<br>
<br></div>About a year and half ago I saw an email to nb-discuss from a young woman who had come to SF recently and had no place to go for the night, and she was escorted out in the middle of the night after being woken up from her sleep. She related that she was terrified of being out in the streets alone at night in the mission. I'll happily take the flak from many noisebridgers to help someone stay
warm on a cold rainy night. To me, being human is about finding ways to
bend the rules and share resources for human benefit. <br><br></div>You all are right, NB is not a homeless shelter. I don't have all the answers. Maybe all of you are totally in the right that we should be locking down. We aren't equipped for it. I'm not even necessarily arguing on these points. What I am saying is that people at noisebridge are PEOPLE. Everyone has feelings, everyone has needs, everyone needs to be approach with, as James Sundquist just said - with dignity and conversation and benefit of the doubt, and not dehumanized and stereotyped. WHAT WOULD MR ROGERS DO.<br>
<br></div><div>Or more importantly, how do we give everyone SLACK,<br><br></div><div></RANT><br></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div><div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 8:58 PM, Praveen Sinha <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dmhomee@gmail.com" target="_blank">dmhomee@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Awww thanks!!! I actually think the both of you are quite adorable too!<div><br></div><div>What I think will take a longer time to write up than I have at the moment. I'll save that for a future post. </div>
<div><br></div><div>In so far as the lease: I really don't think it's as big as a bogeyperson as people are worrying about. That's not to say we should have people living in elevator shafts... </div><div><br>
</div><div>But more than that, I do think we should be focused on building positive consensus: if we focus too much on rigid rules and not enough on the people, then we just get bunch of miserable people: as much as we wish that legal systems could be like code and we could get it debugged and working like a machine, it's just not that way. We are people not machines.</div>
<div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 6:38 PM, Will Sargent <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:will.sargent@gmail.com" target="_blank">will.sargent@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
</div><div><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">It's pretty clear that Praveen either doesn't care or can't conceive of any repercussions to Noisebridge as a result of his actions. <div>
<br></div><div>People doing drugs at the space? Fine.</div>
<div>People offering drugs at the space? Also fine.</div><div>People sleeping at the space? Not just fine, Praveen will actually give you an invitation.<br><div><br></div><div>The idea that Noisebridge might actually lose its lease is just not there. The idea that there might be people adversely affected is not there. There's not even a balancing of good versus bad there -- Praveen thinks it's good, everyone who thinks its bad must be wrong and unexcellent.</div>
<span><font color="#888888">
</font></span></div><span><font color="#888888"><div><br></div><div>Will.</div></font></span></div><div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 5:45 PM, Ceren Ercen <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ceren@ercen.com" target="_blank">ceren@ercen.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir="ltr">"Blah blah I got caught living at the space and so i will ramble enough and act confused about how this violates and endangers NB's lease, people will get distracted discussing hypotheticals about a live-in docent. Blah blah. "</p>
<p dir="ltr">Praveen, you're adorable, but no, no living at the space. The lease agreement should be the end of the story. Go start another space if you want a hacker space with a lease that allows for a live-in person. Good luck with that.</p>
<p dir="ltr">For the record, I wouldn't consider someone for the position who had already pointedly ignored the community rules, based solidly on the agreement with the landlord that NO ONE LIVES IN THE SPACE.<br>
</p><div><div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Apr 2, 2014 8:16 PM, "Frantisek Apfelbeck" <<a href="mailto:algoldor@yahoo.com" target="_blank">algoldor@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><div style="font-size:10pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif"><div><span>Hi to all,</span></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-size:13.3333px;background-color:transparent;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif">
<span>Just shortly about my involvement, I'm repeating my self but well looks like the old story is being loved to come out again :-) It is not directly connected to the current cooking in the space, so skip it if you are just sorting out this issue.<br>
</span></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-size:13.3333px;background-color:transparent;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif"><br><span></span></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-size:13.3333px;background-color:transparent;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif">
<span>Tastebridge was great fun and it was more or less keeping the back of the Noisebridge (bathrooms and kitchen) operational and because I like things clean and organized it was in general taken as a positive direction. Sometimes we had a screw ups like over fermented bottles of kombucha spraying people around, some stuff not cleaned on time and fridges having out of day items. However in general it was kept well, we did catering for 5 min of fame events, member meetings, underground markets etc. promoting our activities from that and getting also part of our budget.</span></div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:13.3333px;background-color:transparent;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-size:13.3333px;background-color:transparent;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif">
Al's announcement that I'm moving out with my name in the subject was a good show of how not to do stuff in that time in the community, caused a lots of drama and Al was shouted at a lot. The main reason was because he did not give me time and space to talk about that, especially not with mediators or few members being present from both yes and no sides. This was really pity I think because I would definitely not endanger my position in the community with such a fopa especially when I had another options, which I had. So in another words big drama which could be sorted quite quietly. To be absolutely honest it was maybe better that it become a big issue, because I feel now much more with the people who are targeted in a similar manner for variety of actions even when things can be sorted in a reasonable way. Public mop. However
again in that time, the resolution was found very quickly and I could continue with my activities without any issues, so concerning the work no harm done, for the integrity of the Noisebridge community not the best. Now after the years with keeping an eye on the activities in the space from around the world through the discuss and talking to friends I have still the feeling that the main target by Al was actually me not directly my activities, that is at least my opinion.<br>
</div><div style="font-style:normal;font-size:13.3333px;background-color:transparent;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-size:13.3333px;background-color:transparent;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif">
After being active in many hackerspaces around the world I think that having separate
living quarters/areas for people involved in community places is a good idea and I vote for that, really looking forward to help out the build up of by Mitch promoting hacker residency programs. If people live in their working places it gets often too intensive, they become too obsessive and if someone doesn't like someone else it is blocking the energies/flow in the place. So I'm now more for separate accommodation and living arrangements seems to me neater.<br>
</div><div style="font-style:normal;font-size:13.3333px;background-color:transparent;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif"><br><span></span></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-size:13.3333px;background-color:transparent;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif">
<span>This paragraph you my skip it is too long for many just quick personal explanation
:-) Concerning my sleeping/living in the place, it intensified especially at the end of my stay in SF when I have found out that I have to sort out with the immigration my stay because when I entered the USA the last time they did not give me the stamp on the border and when I left the time before they did not signed me off, so it looked like that I'm in the states nearly for 2 years which is not exactly what my PhD. visa for 6 months would allow. If I had to leave immediately the states I would have to train a new brewer in Three Stone Hearth Kitchen where I was a master brewer and that would be an issue, because at least month or so should be needed. So when I realized what issues I'm potentially facing I had around one week or 10 days more or less to sort that out, with possibly leaving the place immediately after. That cause way more than 16 hours working days and me staying in he place. I've stayed in the place in the months before over the night,
which sometimes meant finishing up around 3 am brewing class and getting up before 7 am to leave for Berkeley to brew. However majority of the time, and that means 5-6 days per week I was happily sleeping somewhere close to the beach, in the park, out of the town, with friends couch surfing, name it. That I liked, staying at Noisebridge over the night was kind of must and I tried o avoid it both because of potential troubles and not doing me well. Believe it or not I do not like to overstep if I know that the community doesn't approve of that in general, but well in this case I did and I appologised. However as I said especially at the period when I had to sort out my issues with the immigration I was staying around more and that was not good for anyone.<br>
</span></div><div> <br>Well I think that would be enough for recapitulation, have a good time and I hope you manage to keep the place running nice and open, based on consensus with active
community showing the direction. It was possible before, it can be done again.<br><br>Sincerely,<br><br></div><div>Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck</div><div><br><br></div><div>biotechnologist&kvasir and hacker</div><br>
<div><br></div><div><a href="http://www.frantisekapfelbeck.org" target="_blank">http://www.frantisekapfelbeck.org</a></div><div><br><br></div><div>"There is no way to peace, peace is the way." Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi<br>
</div><div style="display:block"> <div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"> <div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
<div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial"> On Thursday, April 3, 2014 3:26 AM, daravinne <<a href="mailto:daravinne@gmail.com" target="_blank">daravinne@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br> </font> </div> <div><div><div><div dir="ltr">
when i first started doing 5mof a few years ago, part of the ritual was
getting there from work and taking a nap in a comfy chair before i started doing event-related stuff. <div><br clear="none"></div><div>frantisek was one of the first people i ever encountered at the space and his implementation of tastebridge was focused and well-run. i didn't really see it as a problem that he was living at the space, since i noticed that after he was ejected, less productive and helpful people replaced him, and the overall cleanliness and good working order of the space declined. him being there most of the time was a great benefit to the space, because he did genuinely care about the state of the space he was using and made up his use of resources by providing the intangible service of near-constant management. i do read all his emails, and i agree with praveen that his insights are valuable, possibly more so than other people who are currently overseas and continue to post to the list.</div>
</div><div><br clear="none"><br clear="none"><div>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Johny Radio <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="mailto:johnyradio@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnyradio@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br clear="none">
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><div>
<div>Some of the best nb hackers have slept at nb once or twice. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Nb has only ITSELF to blame. When you open the door to all comers, don't be shocked at their behavior. </div><div><div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>------ Original Message ------</div>
<div>From: "Ceren Ercen" <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="mailto:ceren@ercen.com" target="_blank">ceren@ercen.com</a>></div>
<div>To: "Jeffrey Carl Faden" <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="mailto:jeffreyatw@gmail.com" target="_blank">jeffreyatw@gmail.com</a>></div>
<div>Cc: "Frantisek Apfelbeck" <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="mailto:algoldor@yahoo.com" target="_blank">algoldor@yahoo.com</a>>; "NoiseBridge Discuss" <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="mailto:noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net" target="_blank">noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a>></div>
<div>Sent: 4/2/2014 8:53:41 AM</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] Cooking in the space, update</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<blockquote cite="http://CAGGi9hdpGu=8ej8C2MPb1Zyp0A3XK1aNn0tu=09a0i5=3weU6Q@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Seriously.
<div><br clear="none"></div>
<div>Frantisek, you covertly squatted in the NB space, and got all apology-tastic when you got caught. </div>
<div>You should have the sense and humility to recuse yourself from all topics that are addressing the serious problem of "how do we stop people from trying to live in the space". Even if it's your pet "I like to ferment things" workspace. </div>
<div><br clear="none"></div>
<div>Somehow, you don't have the clue or grace to back the fuck off. So I will suggest it for you. Back away from this thread, no one read your rambling email. If you're distressed, consider that it's actions like YOURS that made it impossible for Noisebridge to have a pleasantly luxurious kitchen. Great job. </div>
<div><br clear="none"></div>
<div>- Ceren </div>
<div><br clear="none"></div>
<div><br clear="none"></div></div>
<div><br clear="none"><br clear="none">
<div>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Jeffrey Carl Faden <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="mailto:jeffreyatw@gmail.com" target="_blank">jeffreyatw@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br clear="none">
<blockquote style="PADDING-LEFT:1ex;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid"><span>Reminder: <span style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:Helvetica">biotechnologist & kvasir and hacker </span><span style="FONT-FAMILY:Helvetica">Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck </span><span style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:Helvetica">from Kasiri, Jeju repeatedly slept in the off-limits south stairwell at Noisebridge, so anything he has to say about proper use of facilities should be taken with a grain of salt.</span><span><font color="#888888">
</font></span></span><div style="FONT-SIZE:12px;FONT-FAMILY:Helvetica;MARGIN:0px"><br clear="none"></div><span><font color="#888888">
</font></span><div>Jeffrey</div>
<div>
<div><br clear="none"><br clear="none">
<div>
<div>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 5:55 AM, Frantisek Apfelbeck <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="mailto:algoldor@yahoo.com" target="_blank">algoldor@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br clear="none"></div>
<blockquote style="PADDING-LEFT:1ex;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid">
<div style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif">
<div><span>Hi to all,<br clear="none"></span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;FONT-STYLE:normal;BACKGROUND-COLOR:transparent"><span>Just few notes on the kitchen, I have run and helped to equip many around the world and on variety of hacker events especially in last few years under the Food Hacking Base project which the Tastebridge was a first step I would say. It is interesting to see so many hackerspaces going forward on biotech, food hacking and brewing with Noisebridge being one of the forerunners with amazing set up around 2010 and 2011 and now well ...<br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;FONT-STYLE:normal;BACKGROUND-COLOR:transparent"><br clear="none"><span></span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;FONT-STYLE:normal;BACKGROUND-COLOR:transparent"><span>stove - crucial. If you do not have a stove you can not cook most of the meals and brewing is an issue for many types of beverages, also you will have really problem to sterilize - pressure cooker works fine if you have one. Kitchen without stove is close to not being a kitchen, biotech applications need sterilization most of the time and heat treatment of ingredients is often crucial (and microwave is not a cure for everything).<br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;FONT-STYLE:normal;BACKGROUND-COLOR:transparent"><br clear="none"><span></span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;FONT-STYLE:normal;BACKGROUND-COLOR:transparent"><span>fridge - very important. To keep you perishable food ingredients, cultures and of course nice cold drinks it is more or less necessity, at least for reasonable food and beverage hacking. Kitchen without fridge is doable but quite an issue.</span></div>
<div> <br clear="none">preparation place - working bench if you like, crucial. Having some space to work on is crucial especially if you want to work fast and safe. Do not underestimate the height of the bench it hits your back if is too low or too high. This one is really important on hands on workshops.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">sinks - crucial. For keeping the place clean and the work flow continuous sinks and preferably running water are really a key. If you do not have it, you are in trouble. Dishwasher works too, but well sink is sink. <br clear="none">
<br clear="none">storage - for dry ingredients especially. If you want to play around you need your ingredients and they need to stored properly. Stainless steel or glass well sealed work very well, plastic is a good cheap alternative. Insect and rats may be an issue if they get out of hand which was a case in the building many times so this one has to be kept in mind. <br clear="none">
<br clear="none">The answer to how to keep the kitchen clean is both simple and complicated. The way which works for me and projects in which I'm involved is to get together people who enjoy playing with food, hacking, brewing, biotech and consuming&enjoying the products of their efforts and let them to organize the spot, sometimes poke them a bit if the things go out of hand. Better environment you have from the point of view of equipment/infrastructure and funds, more likely you are to form a nice and vibrant community around it and enjoy their achievements. Note as most of the things in community the social interactions are really important and preparing and sharing the meals and drinks brings together people really well.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">Best of luck with your kitchen plans, try to keep it nice and functional, it will pay off eventually. However even if you decide to destroy it, which I do not consider wise because it will not touch a core of the current problem, when the time comes, it will be build again, it will just require bit more dedicated people than if it is already standing and ready to be used. <br clear="none">
<br clear="none">Sincerely from Kasiri, Jeju,<br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div>
<div>Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck</div>
<div><br clear="none"></div>
<div>PS Just a note, yes the Noisebridge community has a major social issues and to start to resolve them lots of time and energy from people who are socially developed and sensitive will be needed, the question for you now is how to get them involved and enjoy their work and being productive. 091 labs in Galway, Ireland are running for a brewing classes for a while and it is generating lots of positive interest. Add some tech related project like the experimental incubator build up and you can start to move the things forward in a sound way - friendly, social and organized. <br clear="none">
<br clear="none"></div>
<div>biotechnologist&kvasir and hacker</div><br clear="none">
<div><br clear="none"></div>
<div><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="http://www.frantisekapfelbeck.org/" target="_blank">http://www.frantisekapfelbeck.org</a></div>
<div><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div></div></div><div class="">-- <br>Ronald Cotoni<div>Systems Engineer</div>
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