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Hi Andrey, did you honestly not read the statement released by the
Tor foundation yet? <br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://blog.torproject.org/blog/statement">https://blog.torproject.org/blog/statement</a><br>
<br>
How about the website that his former non-profit setup to do the
best they can to gather more information about the extent to his
sexually abusive behaviors to help the victims who have yet to come
forward?<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://jacobappelbaum.net">http://jacobappelbaum.net</a><br>
<br>
In the context of those writings, it makes some of the comments
you've made on this list come off as reprehensibly vulgar. I'm big
on giving people the benefit of the doubt so I'll just assume you
haven't read up on the entirety of the story yet. There's really
nothing more to be said until the meeting, where I expect we'll be
able to gather a fuller picture as to what kind of person Jacob
really is from people who actually had personal interactions with
him. <br>
<br>
For the record, I thought Jacob seemed like a pretty good guy based
solely on his charismatic stage presence. It looks like this may
have been a shallow understanding of who he actually was as a person
on my part =/<br>
<br>
If it helps you any, you can think of him as a jet engine that
sucked up all these great ideas from actual great people in the
crypto community and then flew high into the sky at their expense.
We're still a strong community, we'll just be one less sociopath by
the end of this nose dive from the looks of it. <br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 06/11/2016 07:11 PM, Andrey Fedorov
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAH3wspnzriXpkcBv2-e095=fnJGTOMgL+Pgz-gHkDKR+qMwbEQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>When you say sexual exploitative behavior, are you sure you
actually mean <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://host.jibc.ca/seytoolkit/what.htm"
target="_blank">sexual exploitation</a>? Ditto with Cosby --
he drugged women so that he could rape them and then he raped
them. Do you think it's fair to cite that as in any way
comparable to "this thing he said at dinner really upset me"?</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Jacob, as far as I can tell, is accused of making forward
advances and humor that makes some people uncomfortable (and
others quite OK with). This would make me think twice before
inviting him over for dinner with polite society friends,
but it's quite a different ballpark than "he's not allowed
in my house".</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Due process is an ideal, like equality or free speech. It
means being measured and careful in one's application of
power. In this case, the decision to ban was made in secret,
announced anonymously and without specific justification on
behalf of all of NB, then retroactively explained as "<span
style="font-size:12.8px">officialy [sic] coming from
noisebridge members", then only then proposed for a vote
next week. This is not process. It is chaos.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jun 11, 2016 at 6:27 PM, Alex
Merlin Glowaski <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:alex.glowaski@gmail.com" target="_blank">alex.glowaski@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>The funny thing is: if it's a single allegation,
the victim is discredited. "But everyone else thinks
he's a great guy!"</div>
<div>Yet when multiple accusers come forward with
similar stories and corroboration, as often happens
once one person speaks out (see: Cosby), then it's a
"lynch mob."</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Years ago, I was warned about this person from a
trusted friend in the community, who knows him,
specifically citing sexually exploitative behavior. A
classic <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Missing_stair"
target="_blank">missing stair.</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Noisebridge is not a court of law, and not dependent
upon the US's legal "due process" system – a system that
is deeply flawed when it comes to issues of sexual
assault. For a glimpse into Noisebridge's actual
established process for related incidents (albeit those
that take place within the space), check out the <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Anti-Harassment_Policy"
target="_blank">anti-harassment policy.</a></div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jun 11, 2016 at 8:06
PM, Andrey Fedorov <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:me@anfedorov.com" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:me@anfedorov.com">me@anfedorov.com</a></a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Obviously not, and please don't try
to re-interpret my words as absurd, as that is <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity"
target="_blank">not constructive</a>.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Let me try again: I am looking for verified
accounts of Jacob's behavior and a chain of
reasoning which justifies a ban from the
space. I'm not defending Jacob's alleged
behavior as universally culturally acceptable,
just asking for some semblance of due process,
because without it, you have <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g"
target="_blank">mob justice</a>. <span
style="font-size:12.8px">For example, Alison
Macrina seems to have substantiated that
Jacob was once rudely forward in a
proposition during dinner, and then made an
inappropriate joke about 9/11. For most
employee-level corporate cultures, this is
wholly unacceptable and HR would start
building a case to fire him. At an dinner
with one friend I'm thinking of, he'd get
quickly put in his place with the coldest
"that's not appropriate" imaginable. With
another friend, he might get eye rolls and a
flirtatious "someone's feeling confident!"
or something similar.</span>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">I don't
know which agencies would be involved in
targeting dissenters / leakers today and I
don't wish to hypothesize about their
methods, but when people start conflating
"he's rude and inappropriate and pushy"
and "he's clearly a rapist, ban him!", it
perks up my "what's going on here?" sense.</span><br>
</div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Once more,
</span><b style="font-size:12.8px">due
process requires evidence and reasoning
and time for people to review the evidence
and ponder the reasoning</b><span
style="font-size:12.8px">.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Think of
it this way: on one end, there is the
perfect trial and on the other is
the Salem witch trials. Let's move this
discussion a bit towards the former.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jun 11,
2016 at 3:22 PM, John Shutt <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:john.d.shutt@gmail.com"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:john.d.shutt@gmail.com">john.d.shutt@gmail.com</a></a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">This
line of reasoning posits that an
unbelievable number of people in the
infosec community — including Alison
Macrina, Andrea Shepard, Shari
Steele, Micah Lee, Bill Buddington,
Yan Zhu, Karen Reilly, Leigh
Honeywell, and Nick Farr, and that’s
just off the top of my head in the
past thirty seconds — are liars or
dupes for unspecified intelligence
agencies, which have decided to
target Jacob Appelbaum in particular
above all other privacy advocates
for reasons unknown, and that the
numerous friends and acquaintances
of Appelbaum who see the accusations
as matching up with patterns of
behavior they have personally
witnessed are also confused or
lying.
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Jun 11, 2016, at
2:23 PM, Andrey Fedorov
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:me@anfedorov.com" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:me@anfedorov.com">me@anfedorov.com</a></a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>There is nothing
to assume: a first
hand account is more
reliable than a
third-hand
interpretation of
what happened
between them, and
her own words
conclude in a way <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sop8ps"
target="_blank">significantly
more opinionated</a> than
the tone of the
article Ceci linked.
The mental state of
those gossiping
about things they
didn't understand is
(a) not very
flattering, (b)
unknowable, and (c)
completely beside
the point.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px
0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span
style="font-size:12.8px">hackers ain't got time for this shit.</span></blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Jacob leaks and
publicizes
classified
information for a
living. His
professional
adversaries are
intelligence
agencies who have
not just time, but
very large budgets
and departments
dedicated to "this
shit".</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div
class="gmail_quote">On
Sat, Jun 11, 2016 at
1:29 PM, Naomi Most
<span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:pnaomi@gmail.com" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pnaomi@gmail.com">pnaomi@gmail.com</a></a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0
0
.8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>OK.
Let's assume
Jill's
refutation of
the
interpretation
of the
witnesses is
the true story
-- that she
was upset for
her own
reasons, not
because of
Jake.<br>
<br>
</div>
Here's what
we're left
with -- that 3
people felt
deeply
concerned for
an
upset-seeming
woman's
well-being who
was under
Jake's
spotlight,
when Occam's
Razor would
normally have
produced
reasoning that
chalked up her
upset-ness to
something more
mundane.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>So then you
can reason two
ways about the
mental state
of the 3
witnesses.
Either:<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>1) they
have, each of
them, absorbed
enough data in
observing
Jacob's
behaviors that
their internal
pattern-matchers
were setting
off warning
alarms, and
they were
willing to
risk social
awkwardness
(and potential
backlash!) to
save this
woman a lot of
trouble;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
or<br>
</div>
<div><br>
2) they were
participating
in a
conspiracy to
take down a
public figure.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>Here's why
I'm not apt to
believe #2:
hackers ain't
got time for
this shit.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>--Naomi<br>
<br>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div
class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<div>On Sat,
Jun 11, 2016
at 11:17 AM,
Cecilia Tanaka
<span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:cecilia.tanaka@gmail.com"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:cecilia.tanaka@gmail.com">cecilia.tanaka@gmail.com</a></a>></span>
wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0
0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>
<p>Sorry, I
can't resist
more! It's
stronger than
me! :)</p>
<p>Did you all
read this
statement? :)</p>
<p>Jill
Bahring: I Was
Not Assaulted
by Jacob
Appelbaum </p>
<p><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://gizmodo.com/jill-bahring-i-was-not-assaulted-by-jacob-appelbaum-1781684838"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://gizmodo.com/jill-bahring-i-was-not-assaulted-by-jacob-appelbaum-1781684838">http://gizmodo.com/jill-bahring-i-was-not-assaulted-by-jacob-appelbaum-1781684838</a></a>
</p>
<p>Quoting
'Mirimir', a
voluntary
collaborator
of Tor
Project:</p>
<p>"I'd say
that
conspiracies
among Tor
Project
employees and
volunteers to
force out and
humiliate a
key employee
would be a
serious
matter, with
obvious impact
on Tor
development.
So it's not
just Jacob's
behavior that
must be
reviewed.
It's also the
behavior of
the lynch
mob. And
anyone who
behaved
dishonestly
and/or
recklessly in
this matter
needs to
resign.
There's no
place in Tor
Project for
rapists. But
there's also
no place there
for lynch
mobs."</p>
<p>Tender
kisses! Sorry
for my bad
English! :*</p>
<p>Ceci</p>
<div
class="gmail_quote">----------
Forwarded
message
----------<br>
From: "Cecilia
Tanaka" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:cecilia.tanaka@gmail.com"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:cecilia.tanaka@gmail.com">cecilia.tanaka@gmail.com</a></a>><br>
Date: Jun 11,
2016 3:01 PM<br>
Subject: Re:
[tor-talk]
Statement by a
group of women
regarding
*Appelbaum*<br>
To: <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:tor-talk@lists.torproject.org" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:tor-talk@lists.torproject.org">tor-talk@lists.torproject.org</a></a>><br>
<br
type="attribution">
<p>Oh, it is
so lovely!
The world is
really small,
as I said
times before!
<3</p>
<p>Joana
Varon (not
Veron) is a
lovely friend
of mine and we
both work
voluntarily in
different
groups for
*women's
empowerment*
using
technology in
general.</p>
<p>I am a bad
lawyer and
tell lots of
bad jokes, but
Joana is a
famous
researcher,
famous for her
intelligence
and her work
in the privacy
area.</p>
<p>I didn't
know about
this
statement,
because I am
being harassed
for several
"friends" of
mine and, just
in case, I
avoiding
contact with
everybody. :P</p>
<p>Now, my day
is much more
beautiful and
I think I love
her even more,
haha!! ;)</p>
<p>I bcc her
in this
message and
- wow! -
Jo, I do love
you! Thank
you for being
so fair and
rational in
all the
moments. You
are an awesome
professional
and a gorgeous
person. Thank
you for being,
my dear! :*</p>
<p>Have a
lovely
weekend, shiny
happy people!
<3</p>
<p>Cecilia, la
la la... Yep,
always
"cecilying",
Jo! :D</p>
<div>
<div
class="gmail_quote">On
Jun 11, 2016
2:26 PM,
"carlo von
lynX" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:lynX@time.to.get.psyced.org" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lynX@time.to.get.psyced.org">lynX@time.to.get.psyced.org</a></a>>
wrote:<br
type="attribution">
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0
0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">FOR
IMMEDIATE
RELEASE:
Saturday 11th
June 2016<br>
<br>
We, the
undersigned,
are a group of
women who have
been friends,
colleagues,
co-workers or
partners of
Jacob "Jake"
Appelbaum over
many years.<br>
<br>
We have
decided that
we must speak
out due to the
nature of this
coordinated
and one-sided
attack on his
character and
work. It has
become clear
the mainstream
media are
unwilling to
fact-check,
and only too
willing to
persist in
spreading
uncorroborated
and
unfalsifiable
rumor. This
statement is
to give our
positive
experiences
with Jake from
our
first-hand,
long-term
perspectives,
over many
public and
private
situations.<br>
<br>
We do not
claim to know
what happened
in precise
situations
that we were
not present
for, and we do
not want to
trivialise and
minimise any
pain that may
have been
caused. But we
are observing
– beyond the
allegations,
that are not
for us to
comment on
specifically –
an egregious
character
assassination
is being
played out
with numerous
defamations
online and
offline. This
is not how the
truth can be
determined, or
justice for
anyone done,
whether law
enforcement is
to be trusted
or not.<br>
<br>
We would like
to state that
our
experiences
with Jake are
different than
what is often
being
portrayed. We
know Jake to
be a kind,
loyal and
dedicated
person. We do
understand
Jake can be
outspoken and
provocative
regarding a
number of
issues – which
can come
across as
offensive –
however, we
have never
found Jake to
be as is being
alleged.<br>
<br>
We are not
apologists for
any genuine
wrongdoing,
and as women
working in
this community
we know that
there are
struggles
around sexism.
However,
simple
punitivism is
not how the
human rights
that we all
defend should
be enforced or
framed.<br>
<br>
We believe
that an open
and
evidence-based
discussion in
this situation
is necessary
to allow our
community to
develop better
processes to
handle any
allegations.
Furiously
targeting one
person without
allowing for
proper fact
analysis will
never solve
the bigger
structural
problem that
has been
highlighted.
We should use
this moment to
grow and make
things better,
not destroy
the movement
and create
divisions. We
need to create
a channel for
discussions on
how to make
things better.<br>
<br>
We stand in
solidarity
with Jake
against the
way this is
being handled
and on the
side of
justice for
all, in hope
the truth on
all sides will
be able to
come to light
in a rational
and
constructive
manner.<br>
<br>
<br>
Renata Avila,
Human Rights
Lawyer<br>
Susan Benn,
Artist<br>
Cathleen
Berger, Policy
Advisor<br>
Geraldine de
Bastion,
Policy Expert<br>
Annegret
Falter,
Political
Scientist<br>
Marie Gutbub,
Journalist<br>
Sarah
Harrison,
Journalist<br>
Christy Lange,
Writer<br>
Isik Mater,
Infosec
Specialist<br>
Angela
Richter,
Theatre
Director<br>
Felicity Ruby,
PhD Candidate<br>
Joana Veron,
Lawyer<br>
<br>
<br>
The initial
signatories to
this statement
(named above)
have opened an
email address
to receive
additional<br>
signatories as
well as any
other
constructive
comments.<br>
<br>
Email: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dueprocess@riseup.net" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dueprocess@riseup.net">dueprocess@riseup.net</a></a><br>
Key ID:
3D1CEF58<br>
Key
Fingerprint:
2A1D 7685 7AF0
ADD5 F3E5 D5B0
748C FAE0 3D1C
EF58<br>
<br>
<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2858953/Statement-Appelbaum-11-06.pdf"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2858953/Statement-Appelbaum-11-06.pdf">https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2858953/Statement-Appelbaum-11-06.pdf</a></a><br>
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href="https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2858953/Statement-Appelbaum-11-06.txt"
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color="#888888"><br>
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<span><font
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<br
clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
<div
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Naomi
Theora Most<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:naomi@nthmost.com" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:naomi@nthmost.com">naomi@nthmost.com</a></a><br>
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href="tel:%2B1-415-728-7490" value="+14157287490" target="_blank">+1-415-728-7490</a><br>
<br>
skype: nthmost<br>
<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://twitter.com/nthmost" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://twitter.com/nthmost">http://twitter.com/nthmost</a></a></div>
</font></span></div>
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</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
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target="_blank">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
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href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss"
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</blockquote>
</div>
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<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
</div>
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<div data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">yours truly <span
style="font-size:12.8px">☆ </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://alexglow.com"
style="font-size:12.8px"
target="_blank">alexglow.com</a></div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">my
fave hardware projects </span><span
style="font-size:12.8px">☆</span><span
style="font-size:12.8px"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://sayat.me/alexglow"
style="font-size:12.8px"
target="_blank">hackster.io/lists/alex</a><br>
</div>
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</div>
</div>
</div>
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</blockquote>
</div>
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</div>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a>
</pre>
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