<div dir="ltr"><div><div>To Andrey and many others on the outside looking in:<br></div><div><br>Our process of coming to the conclusion that Jacob is not welcome at Noisebridge was the same as that we use for problematic individuals that end up on the "86 list". The only abnormal move we made this time was to make an announcement about it.<br></div><div><div><br></div>We don't use public-facing methods for discussion of highly sensitive, emotionally charged affairs anymore. You can do your own digging into the Noisebridge mailing list archives for performative reasons of why.<br><br>> "<span style="font-size:12.8px">due process requires evidence and reasoning and time for people to review the evidence and ponder the reasoning</span><span style="font-size:12.8px">."<br><br></span></div></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Many within Noisebridge have had at least half a decade of time to ponder. For the Noisebridge community, action was long OVER-"due".<br></span><br>There is not a successful community in
the world that doesn't make strategic choices about how it handles
difficult social puzzles. If you'd like to find out how Noisebridge has
become successful at establishing its safe space and its low-drama, high
"yes you can actually hack here" community setting -- and
potentially participate in the community process -- please ask more
questions rather than barreling in with accusations and demanding "proof".<br><br>> I am looking for verified accounts of Jacob's behavior and a chain of reasoning which justifies a ban from the space.<br><br></div><div>...which you'll do what with, exactly?<br></div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,<br></div><div>Naomi<br><br><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jun 11, 2016 at 7:11 PM, Andrey Fedorov <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:me@anfedorov.com" target="_blank">me@anfedorov.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>When you say sexual exploitative behavior, are you sure you actually mean <a href="http://host.jibc.ca/seytoolkit/what.htm" target="_blank">sexual exploitation</a>? Ditto with Cosby -- he drugged women so that he could rape them and then he raped them. Do you think it's fair to cite that as in any way comparable to "this thing he said at dinner really upset me"?</div><div><div><br></div><div>Jacob, as far as I can tell, is accused of making forward advances and humor that makes some people uncomfortable (and others quite OK with). This would make me think twice before inviting him over for dinner with polite society friends, but it's quite a different ballpark than "he's not allowed in my house".</div><div><br></div><div>Due process is an ideal, like equality or free speech. It means being measured and careful in one's application of power. In this case, the decision to ban was made in secret, announced anonymously and without specific justification on behalf of all of NB, then retroactively explained as "<span style="font-size:12.8px">officialy [sic] coming from noisebridge members", then only then proposed for a vote next week. This is not process. It is chaos.</span></div></div></div><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jun 11, 2016 at 6:27 PM, Alex Merlin Glowaski <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:alex.glowaski@gmail.com" target="_blank">alex.glowaski@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div>The funny thing is: if it's a single allegation, the victim is discredited. "But everyone else thinks he's a great guy!"</div><div>Yet when multiple accusers come forward with similar stories and corroboration, as often happens once one person speaks out (see: Cosby), then it's a "lynch mob."</div></div><div><br></div><div>Years ago, I was warned about this person from a trusted friend in the community, who knows him, specifically citing sexually exploitative behavior. A classic <a href="http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Missing_stair" target="_blank">missing stair.</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>Noisebridge is not a court of law, and not dependent upon the US's legal "due process" system – a system that is deeply flawed when it comes to issues of sexual assault. For a glimpse into Noisebridge's actual established process for related incidents (albeit those that take place within the space), check out the <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Anti-Harassment_Policy" target="_blank">anti-harassment policy.</a></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jun 11, 2016 at 8:06 PM, Andrey Fedorov <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:me@anfedorov.com" target="_blank">me@anfedorov.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Obviously not, and please don't try to re-interpret my words as absurd, as that is <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity" target="_blank">not constructive</a>.<div><br></div><div>Let me try again: I am looking for verified accounts of Jacob's behavior and a chain of reasoning which justifies a ban from the space. I'm not defending Jacob's alleged behavior as universally culturally acceptable, just asking for some semblance of due process, because without it, you have <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g" target="_blank">mob justice</a>. <span style="font-size:12.8px">For example, Alison Macrina seems to have substantiated that Jacob was once rudely forward in a proposition during dinner, and then made an inappropriate joke about 9/11. For most employee-level corporate cultures, this is wholly unacceptable and HR would start building a case to fire him. At an dinner with one friend I'm thinking of, he'd get quickly put in his place with the coldest "that's not appropriate" imaginable. With another friend, he might get eye rolls and a flirtatious "someone's feeling confident!" or something similar.</span><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">I don't know which agencies would be involved in targeting dissenters / leakers today and I don't wish to hypothesize about their methods, but when people start conflating "he's rude and inappropriate and pushy" and "he's clearly a rapist, ban him!", it perks up my "what's going on here?" sense.</span><br></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Once more, </span><b style="font-size:12.8px">due process requires evidence and reasoning and time for people to review the evidence and ponder the reasoning</b><span style="font-size:12.8px">.</span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Think of it this way: on one end, there is the perfect trial and on the other is the Salem witch trials. Let's move this discussion a bit towards the former.</span></div></div><div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jun 11, 2016 at 3:22 PM, John Shutt <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:john.d.shutt@gmail.com" target="_blank">john.d.shutt@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">This line of reasoning posits that an unbelievable number of people in the infosec community — including Alison Macrina, Andrea Shepard, Shari Steele, Micah Lee, Bill Buddington, Yan Zhu, Karen Reilly, Leigh Honeywell, and Nick Farr, and that’s just off the top of my head in the past thirty seconds — are liars or dupes for unspecified intelligence agencies, which have decided to target Jacob Appelbaum in particular above all other privacy advocates for reasons unknown, and that the numerous friends and acquaintances of Appelbaum who see the accusations as matching up with patterns of behavior they have personally witnessed are also confused or lying.<div><div><div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Jun 11, 2016, at 2:23 PM, Andrey Fedorov <<a href="mailto:me@anfedorov.com" target="_blank">me@anfedorov.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div dir="ltr"><div>There is nothing to assume: a first hand account is more reliable than a third-hand interpretation of what happened between them, and her own words conclude in a way <a href="http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sop8ps" target="_blank">significantly more opinionated</a> than the tone of the article Ceci linked. The mental state of those gossiping about things they didn't understand is (a) not very flattering, (b) unknowable, and (c) completely beside the point.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span style="font-size:12.8px">hackers ain't got time for this shit.</span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Jacob leaks and publicizes classified information for a living. His professional adversaries are intelligence agencies who have not just time, but very large budgets and departments dedicated to "this shit".</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jun 11, 2016 at 1:29 PM, Naomi Most <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:pnaomi@gmail.com" target="_blank">pnaomi@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div>OK. Let's assume Jill's refutation of the interpretation of the witnesses is the true story -- that she was upset for her own reasons, not because of Jake.<br><br></div>Here's what we're left with -- that 3 people felt deeply concerned for an upset-seeming woman's well-being who was under Jake's spotlight, when Occam's Razor would normally have produced reasoning that chalked up her upset-ness to something more mundane.<br><br></div><div>So then you can reason two ways about the mental state of the 3 witnesses. Either:<br><br></div><div>1) they have, each of them, absorbed enough data in observing Jacob's behaviors that their internal pattern-matchers were setting off warning alarms, and they were willing to risk social awkwardness (and potential backlash!) to save this woman a lot of trouble;<br></div><div><br>or<br></div><div><br>2) they were participating in a conspiracy to take down a public figure.<br><br></div><div>Here's why I'm not apt to believe #2: hackers ain't got time for this shit.<br><br></div><div>--Naomi<br><br></div><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div>On Sat, Jun 11, 2016 at 11:17 AM, Cecilia Tanaka <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:cecilia.tanaka@gmail.com" target="_blank">cecilia.tanaka@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br></div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div><p>Sorry, I can't resist more! It's stronger than me! :)</p><p>Did you all read this statement? :)</p><p>Jill Bahring: I Was Not Assaulted by Jacob Appelbaum </p><p><a href="http://gizmodo.com/jill-bahring-i-was-not-assaulted-by-jacob-appelbaum-1781684838" target="_blank">http://gizmodo.com/jill-bahring-i-was-not-assaulted-by-jacob-appelbaum-1781684838</a> </p><p>Quoting 'Mirimir', a voluntary collaborator of Tor Project:</p><p>"I'd say that conspiracies among Tor Project employees and volunteers to force out and humiliate a key employee would be a serious matter, with obvious impact on Tor development. So it's not just Jacob's behavior that must be reviewed. It's also the behavior of the lynch mob. And anyone who behaved dishonestly and/or recklessly in this matter needs to resign. There's no place in Tor Project for rapists. But there's also no place there for lynch mobs."</p><p>Tender kisses! Sorry for my bad English! :*</p><p>Ceci</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: "Cecilia Tanaka" <<a href="mailto:cecilia.tanaka@gmail.com" target="_blank">cecilia.tanaka@gmail.com</a>><br>Date: Jun 11, 2016 3:01 PM<br>Subject: Re: [tor-talk] Statement by a group of women regarding *Appelbaum*<br>To: <<a href="mailto:tor-talk@lists.torproject.org" target="_blank">tor-talk@lists.torproject.org</a>><br><br type="attribution"><p>Oh, it is so lovely! The world is really small, as I said times before! <3</p><p>Joana Varon (not Veron) is a lovely friend of mine and we both work voluntarily in different groups for *women's empowerment* using technology in general.</p><p>I am a bad lawyer and tell lots of bad jokes, but Joana is a famous researcher, famous for her intelligence and her work in the privacy area.</p><p>I didn't know about this statement, because I am being harassed for several "friends" of mine and, just in case, I avoiding contact with everybody. :P</p><p>Now, my day is much more beautiful and I think I love her even more, haha!! ;)</p><p>I bcc her in this message and - wow! - Jo, I do love you! Thank you for being so fair and rational in all the moments. You are an awesome professional and a gorgeous person. Thank you for being, my dear! :*</p><p>Have a lovely weekend, shiny happy people! <3</p><p>Cecilia, la la la... Yep, always "cecilying", Jo! :D</p><div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Jun 11, 2016 2:26 PM, "carlo von lynX" <<a href="mailto:lynX@time.to.get.psyced.org" target="_blank">lynX@time.to.get.psyced.org</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: Saturday 11th June 2016<br>
<br>
We, the undersigned, are a group of women who have been friends, colleagues, co-workers or partners of Jacob "Jake" Appelbaum over many years.<br>
<br>
We have decided that we must speak out due to the nature of this coordinated and one-sided attack on his character and work. It has become clear the mainstream media are unwilling to fact-check, and only too willing to persist in spreading uncorroborated and unfalsifiable rumor. This statement is to give our positive experiences with Jake from our first-hand, long-term perspectives, over many public and private situations.<br>
<br>
We do not claim to know what happened in precise situations that we were not present for, and we do not want to trivialise and minimise any pain that may have been caused. But we are observing – beyond the allegations, that are not for us to comment on specifically – an egregious character assassination is being played out with numerous defamations online and offline. This is not how the truth can be determined, or justice for anyone done, whether law enforcement is to be trusted or not.<br>
<br>
We would like to state that our experiences with Jake are different than what is often being portrayed. We know Jake to be a kind, loyal and dedicated person. We do understand Jake can be outspoken and provocative regarding a number of issues – which can come across as offensive – however, we have never found Jake to be as is being alleged.<br>
<br>
We are not apologists for any genuine wrongdoing, and as women working in this community we know that there are struggles around sexism. However, simple punitivism is not how the human rights that we all defend should be enforced or framed.<br>
<br>
We believe that an open and evidence-based discussion in this situation is necessary to allow our community to develop better processes to handle any allegations. Furiously targeting one person without allowing for proper fact analysis will never solve the bigger structural problem that has been highlighted. We should use this moment to grow and make things better, not destroy the movement and create divisions. We need to create a channel for discussions on how to make things better.<br>
<br>
We stand in solidarity with Jake against the way this is being handled and on the side of justice for all, in hope the truth on all sides will be able to come to light in a rational and constructive manner.<br>
<br>
<br>
Renata Avila, Human Rights Lawyer<br>
Susan Benn, Artist<br>
Cathleen Berger, Policy Advisor<br>
Geraldine de Bastion, Policy Expert<br>
Annegret Falter, Political Scientist<br>
Marie Gutbub, Journalist<br>
Sarah Harrison, Journalist<br>
Christy Lange, Writer<br>
Isik Mater, Infosec Specialist<br>
Angela Richter, Theatre Director<br>
Felicity Ruby, PhD Candidate<br>
Joana Veron, Lawyer<br>
<br>
<br>
The initial signatories to this statement (named above) have opened an email address to receive additional<br>
signatories as well as any other constructive comments.<br>
<br>
Email: <a href="mailto:dueprocess@riseup.net" target="_blank">dueprocess@riseup.net</a><br>
Key ID: 3D1CEF58<br>
Key Fingerprint: 2A1D 7685 7AF0 ADD5 F3E5 D5B0 748C FAE0 3D1C EF58<br>
<br>
<br>
<a href="https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2858953/Statement-Appelbaum-11-06.pdf" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2858953/Statement-Appelbaum-11-06.pdf</a><br>
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<div dir="ltr">yours truly <span style="font-size:12.8px">☆ </span><a href="http://alexglow.com" style="font-size:12.8px" target="_blank">alexglow.com</a></div>
<div dir="ltr"><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">my fave hardware projects </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">☆</span><span style="font-size:12.8px"> </span><a href="http://sayat.me/alexglow" style="font-size:12.8px" target="_blank">hackster.io/lists/alex</a><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Naomi Theora Most<br><a href="mailto:naomi@nthmost.com" target="_blank">naomi@nthmost.com</a><br>+1-415-728-7490<br><br>skype: nthmost<br><br><a href="http://twitter.com/nthmost" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/nthmost</a></div>
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