<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto">(Forwarding back to list.)<br><br><div id="AppleMailSignature" dir="ltr"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Sent from my pocket Apple IIe</span></div><div dir="ltr"><br>Begin forwarded message:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><b>From:</b> Eric O'Connor <<a href="mailto:eric@oco.nnor.org">eric@oco.nnor.org</a>><br><b>Date:</b> October 4, 2018 at 1:30:29 PM PDT<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:pnaomi@gmail.com">pnaomi@gmail.com</a><br><b>Subject:</b> <b>Fwd: [Noisebridge-discuss] Discussion: the meaning of Safe Space</b><br><br></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div dir="ltr"></div><div dir="ltr">Hey, </div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">I responded to your thread but the mailing list has filtered my mail. </div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Eric<br><br><br>Begin forwarded message:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><b>From:</b> Eric O'Connor <<a href="mailto:eric@oco.nnor.org">eric@oco.nnor.org</a>><br><b>Date:</b> October 4, 2018 at 09:32:48 PDT<br><b>To:</b> Steve Phillips <<a href="mailto:steve@tryingtobeawesome.com">steve@tryingtobeawesome.com</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:sean.purserhaskell@gmail.com">sean.purserhaskell@gmail.com</a>, NoiseBridge Discuss <<a href="mailto:noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> <b>Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] Discussion: the meaning of Safe Space</b><br><br></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div dir="ltr"></div><div dir="ltr">Noisebridge is only designed to be one cohesive community, and there are enough ideas about what that optimal “one cohesive thing” looks like that we’re sort of guaranteed to have some argument and conflict [1]. </div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Rather than continuing to discuss what the one true path should be, maybe we should discuss how to acknowledge and enable compatible subcultures and sub-hackerspaces to form and thrive together. Is there a unifying set of principles? What does compatible mean? How might multiple contexts be implemented? </div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">I.e. maybe I don’t want to live in a brave space every day, but sometimes I’d be willing to be a tourist. Could this be as simple as hosting a “brave space” night once a week? Does it need to be in a segregated location? Is there an open border or are “brave space” attendees looked down upon at regular Noisebridge? </div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">In 1776 we kicked off “laboratory of democracy”, maybe Noisebridge could do more to become a “laboratory of hackerspace”? </div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">[1] fwiw, I don’t know a ton of history here, but I believe current Noisebridge is probably the most successful “one cohesive thing” yet built. So honestly I think a *big* chunk of this discussion should be trying to figure out what is making that go so right. </div><div dir="ltr"><br>On Oct 3, 2018, at 18:54, Steve Phillips <<a href="mailto:steve@tryingtobeawesome.com">steve@tryingtobeawesome.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">A few things:<div><br></div><div>0. I am impressed with the responses thus far and extremely happy that I'm not the only one who's been worried about the more extreme interpretations of what a "safe space" is.</div><div><br></div><div>1. As an ex-philosophy major I am happy it has been pointed out that the more extreme interpretation of a safe space -- namely as a space free from discomfort -- is self-defeating, because that very thing causes discomfort.</div><div><br></div><div>2. I hadn't heard of the notion of a "Brave Space" until Naomi linked some of us to some information explaining it. It seems to preserve the good (and originally intended) parts of safe spaces, particularly freedom from harassment, without creating an environment that transforms the most sensitive person into some sort of all-powerful dictator who can prevent others from speaking certain (totally non-harassing) words and discussing uncomfortable ideas.</div><div><br></div><div>3. 15 years ago, when many old people said they were "disturbed" or "offended" by piercings and unconventional hair colorings, our response was to say things like, "too bad", "that's your problem", "then don't look", "it doesn't affect you", "stop trying to control me", and the like. I believe that we should have a similar response when someone says, "it makes me uncomfortable when you say/discuss/express things like that", provided that the discomfort wasn't caused by an expression of bigotry and is not a form of harassment.</div><div><br></div><div>@Naomi Would you like to elaborate on the notion of what a Brave Space is?<br></div><div><br></div><div>--Steve</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 6:29 PM Sean Purser-Haskell <<a href="mailto:sean.purserhaskell@gmail.com">sean.purserhaskell@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div dir="auto">“Safe space” means to me only one thing: that the person saying it claims unaccountable power to exclude others at their whim. </div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">- Sean</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 6:16 PM Sparr <<a href="mailto:sparr0@gmail.com" target="_blank">sparr0@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">The existence and maintenance of a space where someone might be excluded to avoid someone else's discomfort, despite not having taken any wrong/bad/unreasonable/irresponsible/inconsiderate action, makes me uncomfortable.</div><div dir="ltr"><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 6:08 PM Naomi Most <<a href="mailto:pnaomi@gmail.com" target="_blank">pnaomi@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Does “safe space” mean “freedom from discomfort”? <br>
<br>
This discussion cannot take place on Slack because it causes discomfort. So I am asking the question here. <br>
<br>
I would like to hear from the widest variety of perspectives on this one. It is pertinent to the community conversation we are having tomorrow at 6pm at Noisebridge. <br>
<br>
Thanks for your calm consideration. <br>
<br>
—Naomi<br>
<br>
#bravespace <br><br>
</blockquote></div></div>
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