[Build] Fwd: [Noisebridge-discuss] The electricians are coming! (today between 4 and 5pm)

jim jim at well.com
Sun May 4 14:29:46 UTC 2014


AAAAAACKKK!!!!
     pulling two blacks to provide 220 to a (220)
receptacle! Unthinkable! I hadn't tho't that
possibility: my attempt was with respect to
110 receptacles. Thanks for that tho't: 220
should always be wired w/ red and black
(and for the few things currently in the space,
that's the case).
     My default was to pull #12 THHN or similar
everywhere so's to use a single size and type
of wire and therefore avoid the possibility
that someone would grab and pull #14 then
protect it with a 20A breaker.

     More thanks for your tho'ts.



On 05/03/2014 09:33 PM, Sean Glang wrote:
> Fair enough.
>
> I agree that all of the risks we are discussing are very slight, thus
> is the nature of electrical security.
>
> I was thinking that there would be a guideline that "all receptacles
> should be powered by black wires", and that would lead to someone
> pulling different phases into one box that were both carried on black
> wires. Having two different phases on the same color wire can be super
> dangerous (still not a likely occurrence, but a lot more likely a
> danger than anything else we've discussed).
>
> However, if there's not a specific rule like that, I don't see any major issue.
>
> Another common default is to put all the lighting circuits on 15 amp
> breakers, and all the outlets on 20 amp breakers. Not sure how easy
> that would be to make happen with a bunch of existing circuits, just a
> thought.
>
> TL,DR: sounds like you have a good handle on it.
>
> -Sean
>
> On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 9:21 PM, jim <jim at well.com> wrote:
>>      Thank you for your tho'ts, Sean.
>>
>>      It is more likely, in a hacker space, that power
>> loss will result from someone's misuse of a tool
>> or an experimental something powered from
>> a receptacle. I think much more likely.
>>      The choice of only black for receptacles and
>> red for all else (yes, the colors map to the sub-
>> panel) is to make an easy, visible convention for
>> whoever might hack the electricity.
>>      The loss of an entire side (either red or black)
>> is unlikely compared to the (still unlikely) loss of
>> power of a single branch. There are two sub-
>> panels fed from the basement shutoffs, one
>> three-phase, the other split phase. Each has
>> breakers to control many separate branches.
>>      It would be an easy pull to get a black-white
>> pair to the ceiling to ensure against the risk you
>> describe.
>>
>>      In a hacker space, there is some likelihood
>> that someone will want 220 and grab any red
>> and any black to get it (the current wiring will
>> accommodate that). Of course that's improper,
>> and a hacker may not know that 220 should be
>> controlled by a two pole breaker. There's no
>> reliable control of what hackers might do, only
>> education-training may help. May be a sign or
>> two would help.
>>      The sub-panel in the dirty shop is three-phase
>> and should be suitable for 220 applications.
>>      Someone can install a two pole breaker in any
>> of the sub-panels in the space, the easiest being
>> that on the west portion of the south wall and
>> that in the dirty shop and that in the kitchen area
>> (which is a mess currently).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 05/02/2014 10:16 PM, Sean Glang wrote:
>>> I'm mostly a lurker, and don't even got to the space with any kind of
>>> regularity, so feel free to disregard what I have to say.
>>>
>>> However, I am a state licensed electrician.
>>>
>>> It's a bad idea to put all the lights on one phase (which is hopefully
>>> what all the red wires are) and all the plugs on a different phase.
>>>
>>> Two reasons come to mind. One: if there should ever be a power outage
>>> on one phase, you might lose all the lights. (Though this is unlikely)
>>> Two: someone might want power for a 220v machine some time. You need
>>> separate phases for that, and you should NEVER run separate phases
>>> with the same color wire. IMHO, that's how someone will die/start a
>>> fire/do other bad things.
>>>
>>> That's just my two cents though, Neil and Tim probably also have input.
>>>
>>> On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 10:10 PM, Naomi Most <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Jim's own list of identified problems with NB's electrical
>>>> infrastructure.
>>>>
>>>> I'm guessing there is some overlap with what you guys took down, Neil and
>>>> Tim.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>> From: jim <jim at well.com>
>>>> Date: Fri, May 2, 2014 at 12:25 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] The electricians are coming! (today
>>>> between 4 and 5pm)
>>>> To: maestro <maestro415 at gmail.com>
>>>> Cc: Noisebridge-discuss <Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> (thank you, Maestro)
>>>>
>>>> To whoever is in charge,
>>>>
>>>> Please forward the short list of eggrecences below
>>>> to the electricians; it specifies some things that
>>>> they may initially miss:
>>>>
>>>> South wall west : 1/2" pipe from sub-panel and
>>>> perhaps four square boxes need proper straps
>>>> and anchors.
>>>>
>>>> West wall center : receptacle boxes and pipe
>>>> feeding them need proper straps and anchors.
>>>>
>>>> North wall west : sub-panel fed from floor
>>>> internal bus should be screwed tight; cover
>>>> needs proper screws; one of the multiple breakers
>>>> has a broken breaker (I recall it's the 100 A
>>>> breaker that controls the kitchen sub-panel).
>>>>
>>>> North wall Turing, center of room, floor : junction
>>>> box is open; there is a red, white, and black
>>>> (supplied by the sub-panel at the top of the
>>>> stairwell) that can be used for the Church
>>>> classroom--that will need a 1/2" pipe from the
>>>> floor box to a new junction box in the Church
>>>> classroom: pair red and black with a single white,
>>>> use red for lights and black for receptacles.
>>>>
>>>> Kitchen sub-panel (supplied by 100A three-pole
>>>> breaker in the north-west sub-panel) : the kitchen
>>>> sub-panel is a mess inside; pipes coming out of it
>>>> to the south wall of the sinks should be properly
>>>> offset or supported as well as properly strapped
>>>> and anchored.
>>>>
>>>> Generally okay (as I recall):
>>>> * most of the Turing wall and ceiling work
>>>> * most of the DJ booth work
>>>> * work for both toilet rooms
>>>> * all of the darkroom
>>>> * most of the pipes on the ceiling
>>>> * most of the work in the dirty shop
>>>> I.e. no hidden problems.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 05/02/2014 12:05 PM, maestro wrote:
>>>>
>>>> A perfect example of an EXCELLENT person NB has lost due to all the
>>>> bullshit @ the house.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you jim for all your work to the space electrically, the money
>>>> you have put into it in multiple ways, teaching, and sharing in
>>>> attempts to foster positive DO-ocracy and a positive freely creative
>>>> environment...
>>>>
>>>> Message ends
>>>> ________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Friday, May 2, 2014, jim <jim at well.com> wrote:
>>>>>       I did some (not all) of the work to adjust
>>>>> from the previous tenant's needs to Noisebridge's
>>>>> needs.
>>>>>       Because the space is a hacker space, it
>>>>> seemed (and seems) to me that there should
>>>>> be particular consistency in the wiring, given
>>>>> that hackers have the courage to get into
>>>>> stuff they don't understand until after they
>>>>> have gotten in:
>>>>> * black wires are used to power receptacles
>>>>> * red wires are used to power lights and
>>>>>     appliances
>>>>> * blue wires indicate the "third leg" of the
>>>>>     three phase sub-panels.
>>>>>
>>>>>       The idea is that hackers may trip breakers
>>>>> from time to time. Especially at night, it's a
>>>>> bad idea that lights go out if a breaker trips--
>>>>> a matter of safety.
>>>>>       Please convey this idea to the electricians.
>>>>> Note that in some circumstances, the
>>>>> electrical code specifies that lights not share
>>>>> breakers with receptacles. What I tried to do
>>>>> was to extend this principle to the entire space
>>>>> (again, as a matter of safety).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 05/02/2014 12:20 AM, Naomi Most wrote:
>>>>>> Hi everybody,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Electricians Neil and Tim came by earlier.  They were quite thorough,
>>>>>> took pictures and notes, and asked a lot of questions about usage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They seemed to feel there weren't any major scary things wrong, but
>>>>>> there were many minor nicks and cuts that we should probably patch up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They're going to make up a list of "red flag" and "yellow flag" items
>>>>>> and give us rough estimates for costs to fix.  They know we'll want to
>>>>>> fix lots of things ourselves, too, so they're keeping that in mind.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also wrote down a list of electrical to-do items based on their
>>>>>> observations that we can definitely do ourselves.  I'll post that
>>>>>> tomorrow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Finally, a bunch of folks would like to start coordinating on physical
>>>>>> space maintenance and improvements on a separate mailing list.  I
>>>>>> propose using Build:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/build
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Naomi
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 2:31 PM, Henner Zeller <h.zeller at acm.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1 May 2014 14:22, Naomi Most <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> There are two C-10 certified electricians coming to Noisebridge in a
>>>>>>>> few hours.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'll be there to walk through the space and note their comments.
>>>>>>>> I'll
>>>>>>>> report back to this list on their findings.
>>>>>>> Thanks for getting this sorted and investing your time walking them
>>>>>>> through.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> H.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Don't worry: today there is no money being spent or committed to be
>>>>>>>> spent.  This is a free consultation to help us decide how to address
>>>>>>>> the city's concerns about our safety.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>> Naomi
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Naomi Theora Most
>>>>>>>> naomi at nthmost.com
>>>>>>>> +1-415-728-7490
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> skype: nthmost
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/nthmost
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> ~the quieter you become, the more you are able to hear...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Naomi Theora Most
>>>> naomi at nthmost.com
>>>> +1-415-728-7490
>>>>
>>>> skype: nthmost
>>>>
>>>> http://twitter.com/nthmost
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Build mailing list
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>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/build
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