[Noisebridge-discuss] An introduction, and a plea for help with electrical systems

Morley John morleyroarly at gmail.com
Tue Dec 23 23:12:27 UTC 2008


Just to clarify on two important things:

1) Currently, I'm thinking we would at most power the Cambrian with a
centralized generator (650 feet long, with 30 columns, spread an
average of 20 feet apart).  The entire project is ONE mile long, not
two. Not sure how that math got confuzzled, but there ya go.

2) My name's Morley, last name John, and I'm a girl. :) (People get it
reversed aaaaaall the time..)

Christie, if you'd be up for meeting for tea/coffee and chatting, I'd
love to pick your brain!

-Morley

"How do I stop being afraid? Know that there is no safety anywhere.
There never was and there never will be. Stop looking for it. Live
with a fierce intent to waste nothing of yourself or life." - Ann
Shulgin

On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 3:04 PM, Christie Dudley <longobord at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi John,
>
> I'm also interested in helping out here.  I worked on the electrical systems
> for Mutopia last year, so I have a fair idea of what is and is not possible
> with playa conditions.  It sounds like Jim is really knowledgeable about the
> power delivery and I think I could learn something from him.
>
> Regular LEDs should low power enough that you can use smaller batteries to
> run them.  While the Luxeon packaging is pretty attractive for fixed
> installations, it's not something I recommend an artist drop that kind of
> money on.
>
> There's a crazy variety of cheap LEDs to be had on Ebay.  This past year I
> picked up some high brightness/narrow angle ones and realized that a single
> LED made a very effective flashlight.  You might use a narrow-angle like
> that to illuminate any text you wanted to include and possibly spotlight the
> art.  Using wide-angle LEDs, you could create a nice glow effect.  Also, by
> connecting them up with light pipes (acrylic or resin) you can create some
> pretty dramatic effects.
>
> I wouldn't even consider having a "centralized" power source for this sort
> of installation.  You'd lose more energy across the cable than you'd
> actually be using.  Then you'd have to consider the cost of the cable.  The
> copper that would require isn't cheap (or lightweight!).  And once you've
> got it all to the playa, you'd have to worry about trenching... for up to
> two miles...  And you thought lugging batteries around was a pain!  (Not to
> mention making the playa resto people very unhappy.)
>
> One of the more popular ways to power stuff on the playa is via "retired"
> UPS batteries.  Most I've seen are about 2" x 5.5" x 4" and about 5-6 lbs
> each, although there is some variation in size.  It's possible to get them
> for free if you get the word out and have enough time, since it's a regular
> service policy that they have to be replaced every few years, lest they fail
> at critical times and it's fairly expensive to dispose of them.  Most
> batteries that come out of UPSs are still perfectly good for this kind of
> application.
>
> Although I'd be a bit concerned about fitting them inside a 5" column.  They
> really should sit flat.  You could potentially use smaller batteries if you
> got the power requirements down, but that's really dependent on how much
> illumination you'll need, and how it's distributed.  Lighting design
> probably should be something that involves sitting down with drawings, etc.
> etc.
>
> Christie
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 12:30 PM, jim <jim at well.com> wrote:
>>
>> questions
>>
>> about #1 below:
>>   seems you want columns lit all night long, yes?
>>
>> about #2 below:
>>   if columns must appear monolithic, i guess there'd
>> be no holes to allow air currents through to power
>> the fans of a windmill. the 8" by 8" top would support
>> a very small solar panel, probably not worth the
>> effort, though a matter of battery capacity (would
>> a solar panel charge enough to help get the battery
>> through a second or third day).
>>
>> about #3 below:
>>   sounds like multiple batteries in parallel inside
>> the columns.
>>
>> about #4 below:
>>   a luxeon flat panel display is used for GUI,
>> picture, and video images. it doesn't seem appropriate
>> unless it's connected to a computer or DVD play or
>> some other device that presents images to the display.
>> will one or more columns have such devices that present
>> images to the flat panel display?
>>   i'd consider using just LEDs of various kinds for
>> all lighting, possibly in conjunction with circuit
>> boards that manage power delivery. these are easy
>> to design and make.
>>
>> about #5 below:
>>   seems the overall distance approaches two miles,
>> yes?
>>
>> about generators:
>>   a 600 foot cable run will drop voltage (and power),
>> though probably not so much that you can't use it.
>> cables and their connectors that are designed for such
>> generators will withstand sun and water, though
>> they're expensive.
>>   honda and other companies make generators that
>> put out 15 or more Amps of 120 VAC; these cost in the
>> high hundreds or low thousands of dollars. how to
>> manage them: refill fuel, turn them on and off at
>> appropriate times during the day...? and how to
>> protect them from theft?
>>   given 41 columns spaced in a row that spans two
>> miles, how to configure cable so that the generator
>> can power multiple columns simultaneously?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 2008-12-23 at 11:59 -0800, Morley John wrote:
>> > Jim,
>> >
>> > A few comments:
>> >
>> > 1) Yes, we can replace the batteries. If we go the battery route, we
>> > are prepared to procure two sets of batteries - one to sit on a
>> > charger for a day or two, one to sit in the columns. **We don't want
>> > to swap battery arrays every day**, though - that would majorly suck.
>> > I've maintained battery banks for burning man art installations
>> > before, and it's a huge chore. They're heavy, and a pain to lug
>> > around!  Swapping batteries every 3 days would be optimal. So figure
>> > we would need to design for 30 hours of runtime
>> > (3x10-hours-of-darkness nights, based on civil twilight hours).
>> >
>> > 2) Windmills aren't really possible, as they would seriously detract
>> > from the column layout. Solar panels atop the columns, 8"x8" square,
>> > are possible but I worry they'd be cost prohibitive, and not really
>> > charge up the batteries enough to make a difference....?
>> >
>> > 3) We will be casting the columns around hollow cardboard tubes,
>> > allowing for room inside the columns themselves to hold batteries.
>> > They will be protected from the elements, and the playa is a very dry
>> > environment. They're space constrained, though - an 8" column has, at
>> > most, a 5" tube at its center.
>> >
>> > 4) As for the luminosity, it's hard for me to describe. I'm not
>> > familiar with the technical parameters of lighting, really. I can give
>> > you a comparison, though. If we could power something akin to a single
>> > low-wattage (5watt?) compact fluorescent bulb to light the display,
>> > two very bright strobing lights at the top of the column that would be
>> > visible from 1000 feet, and a handful (say, 15 to 20?) small "accent'
>> > LEDs, I'd be happy. It's the display light I most worry about - a
>> > single Luxeon flat panel seems to be a huge energy draw. I can't
>> > imagine adequately lighting a 12"x8"x8" sculpture, in the middle of
>> > the night in the middle of nowhere, with one LED, even if it is a
>> > luxeon. So we increase to 4 luxeons per column.. that's a lot of
>> > juice!
>> >
>> > 5) 41 columns. Spacing of the first 11 columns varies from about a
>> > hundred feet up to 1000 feet. Spacing of the last 30 columns is much
>> > tighter - average of 20 feet apart, max 50, min 5.
>> >
>> > So, who knows something about running 600 feet of electrical wiring
>> > from a generator? Can it be done without too much decrease in current
>> > over that distance?
>> >
>> > We are in the cost proposal stages right now. This will be, hopefully,
>> > funded by the burning man organization, so cost is fairly flexible.
>> > We're looking at a total project budget of at least $8,000. Probably
>> > more like $10k-$12k, what with transportation costs etc. (41 concrete
>> > columns would seem to require a flatbed semi...)
>> >
>> > -Morley
>> >
>> > "How do I stop being afraid? Know that there is no safety anywhere.
>> > There never was and there never will be. Stop looking for it. Live
>> > with a fierce intent to waste nothing of yourself or life." - Ann
>> > Shulgin
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 11:29 AM, jim <jim at well.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >   your project seems interesting to me. i have
>> > > some experience with low voltage systems and
>> > > electronics as well as having worked some years
>> > > as an electrician. i would like to help out.
>> > >   it would help to have exact specs for the
>> > > power needs. how many columns? what distance
>> > > apart? what luminosity needed? describe the
>> > > overall installation from the spectators'
>> > > point of view, please. anything requiring
>> > > power other than lights?
>> > >   batteries are the likely right power source.
>> > > in general terms, the battery should have
>> > > sufficient capacity to provide power for about
>> > > 24 hours. recharging the battery should be
>> > > done by solar panels and/or windmill generators.
>> > > recharging devices should be powerful enough to
>> > > recharge sufficiently within six hours on a dim,
>> > > windless day.
>> > >   is it possible for someone manually to
>> > > replace batteries at some time during the days?
>> > > if so, batteries may be swapped out and
>> > > recharged at some other location. consider an
>> > > electronic circuit that manages how the system
>> > > uses power along with managing recharging.
>> > >   from a mechanical point of view, water and
>> > > sunlight are enemies: wires and cables should
>> > > be UV insensitive and connections sufficiently
>> > > water-resistant not to allow electrical
>> > > conduction between a battery's two terminals.
>> > > given that you're casting the columns, you
>> > > can probably have a cavity that provides
>> > > appropriate shelter and exposure.
>> > >   all of the above is doable with standard
>> > > stuff. the difficulty will likely be trade-offs
>> > > in parts capabilities vs costs. i.e.
>> > > MORE_MONEY == MORE_EASY
>> > > jim at well dot com
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Tue, 2008-12-23 at 10:00 -0800, Morley John wrote:
>> > >> Hi there!
>> > >>
>> > >> I'm Morley. I already know some of you (Rubin, Audrey, who else?)
>> > >> through NIMBY/Interpretive Arson. To the rest of you, greetings! I've
>> > >> been by the space once to check it out and was quite inspired. Glad
>> > >> to
>> > >> see people throwing their energies into all sorts of fascinating
>> > >> endeavours :)
>> > >>
>> > >> I write not just to introduce myself, but to introduce a project I'm
>> > >> working on, and to hopefully recruit some interested folks to help
>> > >> out.
>> > >>
>> > >> The project, working title Timescale, is a scaled representation
>> > >> (time
>> > >> scaled to distance) of the last 4.57 billion years of the history of
>> > >> the planet Earth. It will be installed at Burning Man in 2009. The
>> > >> installation will measure exactly one mile from end to end, starting
>> > >> with the Cryptic Era at the beginning of the formation of the planet,
>> > >> and finishing with the Holocene Epoch, the 11,430 years since the
>> > >> last
>> > >> ice age.  The beginning of each Precambrian Era and Cambrian Epoch
>> > >> (see: http://www.stratigraphy.org/chus.pdf ) will be marked with a
>> > >> concrete column, 8"x8" square, rising up from the playa. Atop the
>> > >> column will be a clear polycarbonate box that holds a sculpture
>> > >> evoking some element of geologic/biologic/evolutionary/climate
>> > >> history
>> > >> from that period of geologic time.
>> > >>
>> > >> The columns will be fabricated at the new NIMBY2 - anyone who wants
>> > >> to
>> > >> learn about casting lightweight concrete, you're welcome to come help
>> > >> out!  Fabrication will begin in earnest this spring.
>> > >>
>> > >> But the more pressing issue, and the one I suspect is more up the
>> > >> alley of folks on this list, is how to power these columns.  For each
>> > >> column we'll need to light the sculpture (luxeons? 5W compact
>> > >> fluorescents?), light the explanatory text on the sides of the
>> > >> columns, and power some sort of strobe/floodlight atop the column so
>> > >> you can see them from afar.  In the Precambrian, there's up to 1000
>> > >> feet between columns. (The entire Cambrian, on the other hand,
>> > >> representing the vast majority of the evolution of Earth's biological
>> > >> diversity, is 660 feet long).
>> > >>
>> > >> Sets of small 7AH to 12AH batteries in each column? (No, we will not
>> > >> put a deep cycle next to each column, they must be stand-alone). A
>> > >> generator and a mile of trenched wiring? A generator powering just
>> > >> the
>> > >> Cambrian, batteries in the Precambrian? A quick calculation indicates
>> > >> that four luxeons will burn out a 7AH battery in about two hours,
>> > >> leading me to think that pure battery power is untenable. What we
>> > >> really need is an electrician to help us figure all of this out.
>> > >>
>> > >> I am far from an electrician - as you might have guessed, I'm
>> > >> primarily a geologist.  If any of you have experience with such
>> > >> things
>> > >> and would like to help us figure out our power systems, we'd be most
>> > >> grateful. (We being myself and my co-conspirator, Flint Hahn). And of
>> > >> course, down the line we'll need plenty of help constructing the
>> > >> actual lighting assemblies for each column. And if anyone wants to
>> > >> claim a column and create a sculpture, great! We'll be putting out
>> > >> the
>> > >> general call for column artists in a few months, once we have funding
>> > >> secured.
>> > >>
>> > >> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to meeting more of you in the
>> > >> future!
>> > >>
>> > >> Cheers,
>> > >>
>> > >> Morley
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> "How do I stop being afraid? Know that there is no safety anywhere.
>> > >> There never was and there never will be. Stop looking for it. Live
>> > >> with a fierce intent to waste nothing of yourself or life." - Ann
>> > >> Shulgin
>> > >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>> > >> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>> > >> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
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>
>
> --
> You can't learn what you think you already know.
>



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