[Noisebridge-discuss] Deep Crack

[Kelly]

So, to clarify.

John Gillmore is loaning Deep Crack to Jake.

Jake is brining his object-which-does-not-fit-on-a-shelf into the
space for a couple months for a project.

Yes?  I feel this is  an important clarification, as it changes the
liability and makes most of the qualms about "the way we do things"
irrelevant, since I think we're all clear on this situation.

Jake's object-which-does-not-fit-on-a-shelf would be in the space at
his own risk, and we would all try to be excellent etc, but we don't
have any liability for it.

-Kelly

On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 12:21 AM, Ceren Ercen <ceren at magnesium.net> wrote:
> TL;DR summary:
> - I'd like NB able to host some loaned things.
> - Insurance won't "let" us, can we fix that?
> - Deep Crack's problematic for more than just that reason.
>
>
> Jacob Appelbaum wrote:
>> Jeffrey Malone wrote:
>>> However, I object to it being at Noisebridge, as it violates our
>>> current policies which you yourself have vehemently defended, and
>>> leaves us open to a large amount of liability.
>>
>> So does this mean that you've decided that it's not OK for people to
>> host large objects at the space that do not fit on the shelf?
>>
>> The discussion from last night about Rachel's hypothetical large
>> furniture sized sewing machine seem relevant here. Is there a grey area
>> about some things?
>
> It is relevant, and as I recall, you were snorting at how anyone who
> didn't "get Noisebridge's way of doing things" could think any sort of
> loaner equipment was a "good idea". You even called us out, asking
> anyone who disagreed with what you'd just stated to out themselves by
> raising their hands in front of the whole membership.
>
> I certainly wanted to say that I felt it was sad that we were not
> allowing ourselves any sort of wiggle room for loans of fun and
> interesting equipment, but I felt some serious derision coming from your
> corner.
>
> ...perhaps I was imagining it.
>
> To clarify:
>
> 1) I would LOVE Noisebridge to be somehow able to host loans. (I even
> raised my hand.)
>
> 2) As far as I could tell, you clearly opposed loaned equipment until
> Deep Crack wasn't going to be a free-and-clear donation. Is this
> different because there simply will never be a chance to "hold out for a
> no-strings-attached" version?
>
>
> 3) And then on TOP of all of this, i feel we really cannot afford to
> avoid "our insurance doesn't cover our asses if any loaned equipment
> falls over and squishes someone's 6-year-old kid / sews their hand to
> the table / cooks your nads". If we host loaned things, we need to
> update our insurance policy somehow, and insurance isn't something you
> can "address  if and when a problem actually comes up."
>
>
>> Do you interpret our current policies as "no personal possessions in the
>> space even during limited projects" or am I reading that wrong?
>>
>> The discussion of liability is perhaps only relevant if we can even
>> bring the thing into the space.
>>
>> Best,
>> Jake
>
> No, it's relevant Right Now, because otherwise it may be
> full-steam-ahead. Do-ocracy and all that. Also, this Loaner Equipment
> Question isn't going to go away.
>
> Perhaps it's good to talk about it in advance to avoid jerking around
> both the "donor" (or lender) and the members/visitors who aren't willing
> to risk their in-country statuses or visas to play chicken games with a
> temperamental INS. It's entirely possible they'd have to /prove/ they
> weren't around the machine at any point, because immigration doesn't
> play burden-of-proof games. Gov't is a jerk like that.
>
>  > Have we become a space where for each project, we must justify and sell
>  > every project to every member? That seems like it's not the case. It
>  > would be quite sad if it was so.
>
> I think that's called "consensus", especially when it exposes us to
> legal risk, cost, may fuck over other members, or makes our insurance
> invalid.
>
> Also IIRC bringing equipment, supervised or not, into the space isn't a
> member-restricted privilege.
>
> A time frame certainly goes a long way towards mitigating the space
> issues, but occupied floor space is only about 20% of the problem here.
> This is definitely your DIYBioFridge, and I DO feel we were unexcellent
> to bounce that thing out of 83c, regardless of whether a particular
> member was driving us nuts.
>
> If we have a committee that will work out what is necessary to allow us
> to cover our asses while bringing loaned equipment in, I want on it. I
> will read boring legal documentation till my eyes bleed.
>
> - Ceren
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