[Noisebridge-discuss] personal computers at Noisebridge (was Re: Missing Green Bike /w Red Grips.)

jim jim at systemateka.com
Sat Feb 5 17:56:45 UTC 2011

    (apologies for continuing this thread, but shannon's 
got good points) 

    a reasonable summary seems that you and some others 
wanted to use a classroom for something and looked into 
turing, saw someone using the room, and felt that you 
should gather not in that room. you've also been in the 
main space when some other group has met in the main 
space, i'm assuming because someone was in the classroom 
and they, too, didn't want to disturb, so met "out there", 
which was disruptive to others. 

    it doesn't seem to matter that the person in the 
classroom was using a laptop or desktop or something 
    you don't mention checking the other classroom to 
see if there were people there. were there? what were 
they doing? 
    it seems that you and your group did not make a 
prior claim to use the room (e.g. post to the event list). 
    i'm highly sympathetic with the mouse-like tendency 
to tip-toe away without asking someone who got there 
first to move, but on the other hand, i think that's 
on us mouses, not on the person who got there first. 
if you have a need that's "higher" (more appropriate to 
the resource), you absolutely should present your wish 
to use the resource, it's a duty to us all that we 
establish that etiquette (says me). at the least, i 
don't buy your complaint because you didn't ask to use 
the room. 

    what's really wrong with this issue is the tone of 
condemnation, it's got a witch hunt feeling. 

    the use of resources is helped with advance notice. 
for an ad hoc case, present your need and negotiate 

    as to the getcher-desktop-out issue, this is an 
old "rule" conceived to stave off the possible trouble 
of people establishing little areas that are not then 
available to others. but that's trying to solve a 
problem that hasn't occurred. in this particular case, 
    this desktop computer has served some of us, and 
isky's behavior, per my eye-witness, has been responsive 
to others' needs. it does not seem to me that he has 
made unfair use of resources nor that the matter of 
desktop vs laptop matters. 

    these long threads (and responses) are wearying. 
"talk them to death or take action", well said. you 
should have taken action as a matter of preference (i.e. 
asked to use the room), awkward as that is: it's a 
hacker space, and it's useful to hack our etiquette 
(a la Call Off Your Tired Old Ethics) so's to improve 
life in general as well as take responsibility for 
getting what we want. 

On Fri, 2011-02-04 at 21:22 -0800, Shannon Lee wrote:
> I agree with Jim, this isn't about whether Isky is a valued member of
> the community or not, or whether he should be drawn and quartered or
> whatever.  Nobody is threatening to Ostracize Isky, or Shun him, or to
> enact any other form of archaic Amish community retribution.  Some of
> us have expressed a grievance about a specific set of behaviors, and
> this is the grievance process that Noisebridge has:  either talk it to
> death, or take direct action.
> This is a straight up commons problem.  Noisebridge is, when it comes
> down to it, a set of shared resources, which the community has come
> together to make available for everyone.  When someone is using more
> than their fair share of a resource, it seems to me like a legitimate
> grievance.
> The classrooms are for people to hold meetings, classes, etc in,
> which, for whatever reason, are better suited to a private room than
> to the central space.  They are shared, in the sense that many groups
> use them, but the whole point is that one group uses them at a time,
> and if a group is using them, a different group can't use them.
> I don't think it's reasonable to expect that some group should be
> required to use this resource around someone, or that they should have
> to expect to either include that person in their activity or to eject
> them in order to get use of the room.   A great huge chunk of the
> space is set aside for literally this purpose -- working at a table
> among others working at a table.  The classrooms are for a different
> use case: group projects (meetings, classes, etc) of limited duration,
> which benefit from having a door.
> I also don't think it's reasonable that you have to expect to ask
> someone else to leave in order to use what should be a shared
> resource.  People who do not have a working relationship with Isky
> consider it rude (after all, he was there first), and will wait, or
> end up meeting in a cafe, or the center tables (I have seen this
> happen lots:  a group having a meeting at the central tables, while
> Isky, alone, headphones on, occupies Turing).  A shared resource (time
> in a meeting room) isn't shared if someone is using all of it, and it
> isn't available if you have to take it from someone else, however
> polite they are about it.
> If this were a different resource -- if he were, for example, drinking
> all the soda and not paying for it, or using all the dark room
> chemicals, or what have you -- this would be a straightforward issue:
>  he'd be asked to kick in his fair share for the resource he was
> using.  We only have two classrooms, though, and even if we blocked
> off more common space for classrooms, there would be a finite number
> of them, and we'd all have to be polite and not use more than our fair
> share.
> I would like Isky to remove his desktop from the space.  There's
> really no place for it.  Barring that, I'd at least like it removed
> from Turing, so that Turing can be used for what it's meant to be used
> for.  I'd like him not to occupy Turing all the time.
> This is my grievance; and yes, I have personally not been able to use
> Turing because others in my group didn't think it was polite to ask
> Isky to get out, and I have personally come into conflict with people
> having meetings in the central space because Isky was camping in
> Turing.
> --S
> On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 5:11 PM, jim <jim at well.com> wrote:
>         -1
>            Jason is speaking for himself, only, I'm guessing,
>         and Meredith agrees with him, as do some others.
>            I and some other others, on the other hand, have
>         other ideas such as I like Isky, am grateful that he's
>         provided the use of his computer to others, and am
>         asking that he please leave the computer in the turing
>         classroom so life can return to its formerly happy
>         state.
>            Isky's use of the space is his own business, it
>         seems to me.
>            It also seems to me kind of poisonous to have the
>         nerve to try to force someone to do what you (plural)
>         want them to do. For Shame! Really! And Jason, you too
>         have had to put up with disparagement, unfairly in my
>         view. Have a heart! Take it easy!
>            Isky can do whatever the fuck he wants, and so
>         can you, and you, and you..., and me. So drop this
>         mom-and-dadness, please.
>            Either that or explain how it is that Isky is
>         preventing you from doing your thing. And show that
>         he's hurt you more than he's helped some of us.
>         On Fri, 2011-02-04 at 16:28 -0800, meredith scheff wrote:
>         > +1
>         >
>         > On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 4:15 PM, Jason Dusek
>         <jason.dusek at gmail.com>
>         > wrote:
>         >          Isky is harmless but his use of the space is
>         annoying.
>         >
>         >          If we do nothing, we allow this bad example to
>         >          persist; but it's not clear there is anything
>         morally
>         >          acceptable that we can do with the computer -- to
>         >          turn it in to a robot, to discard it or to hide are
>         >          all remedies worse than what they cure. Vigilantism
>         >          and the threat thereof is beneath our dignity.
>         >
>         >          The best outcome, the one that will leave everyone
>         at
>         >          ease, is for Isky to remove the computer.
>         >
>         >          Isky, I beseech you, remove this computer. Take it
>         >          back to your house.
>         >
>         >         --
>         >         Jason Dusek
>         >         Linux User #510144 | http://counter.li.org/
>         >
>         >         _______________________________________________
>         >         Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>         >         Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>         >
>         https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>         >
>         >
>         >
>         >
>         > --
>         >
>         >
>         > Ladycartoonist.com
>         >
>         > ___________
>         >
>         > A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an
>         invasion,
>         > butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a
>         sonnet, balance
>         > accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take
>         orders,
>         > give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze
>         a new
>         > problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty
>         meal, fight
>         > efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
>         >
>         > -Robert A. Heinlein
>         >
>         >
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> -- 
> Shannon Lee
> (503) 539-3700
> "Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
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