[Noisebridge-discuss] Handy signs are handy.

[Danny O'Brien]

On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 11:47 AM, Al Sweigart <asweigart at gmail.com> wrote:
> It does show that people don't deface the signs because they disagree
> with a policy or wording or some other reason. People just do it
> because a sign is there. It's not just a sign that says, "Do not
> deface this sign." (which would be pretty funny to deface). It's a
> sign that conveys that signage is useful, and takes the carrot
> approach rather than a punitive stick approach to encourage people not
> to mark them up.
>

I would totally read this as effectively a sign that says "Don't
deface this sign". "$1 -- one *shiny* American dollar to not deface
any signs" isn't far off from that.



> If we buy a vinyl cutter or get framed signs or whatever, it'll just
> be a more expensive thing that gets defaced. Talking about this issue
> and improving the culture is something we need to work on.
>
> -Al
>
> On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 8:28 AM, Danny O'Brien <danny at spesh.com> wrote:
>> Well, oh my days, I would never in a *million* years anticipated such
>> a thing to happen with such a sign!
>>
>> d.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 3:53 PM, Al Sweigart <asweigart at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> http://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/j49hg
>>>
>>> On Jul 29, 2011 1:54 PM, "Christina Olson" <daravinne at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I can appreciate wanting to buy a vinyl cutter, but I put it under the
>>>> same
>>>> umbrella as buying a laminator: It's gonna put more delay between now and
>>>> having signs up. Wide format printed two or three color
>>>> black-text-on-white
>>>> signs run through a regular laminator will be quite readable and perfectly
>>>> serviceable, and take far less time to set up, and making that happen
>>>> doesn't actually depend on anyone but me and Liz.
>>>>
>>>>> One way to thread this needle is to focus on signs as labels instead of
>>>> signs > as instructions or statements of policy. For example, a sign with
>>>> a
>>>> diagram > of where the dishes go and a copy of Danny's "how to do dishes
>>>>> programatically" flowchart might go over better than a big "DO NOT LEAVE
>>>>> >
>>>> DISHES IN THE SINK" and be more effective. Lowering barriers to doing the
>>>> >
>>>> right thing is at least as effective a strategy as playing on free-form
>>>> guilt.
>>>>
>>>> ^^^^ This is definitely what I had in mind. I would like to get people to
>>>> feel good about following the directions in the signs, and engaged with
>>>> the
>>>> process of keeping noisebridge in shape, and not feel alienated or ordered
>>>> around.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Al Sweigart <asweigart at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It really doesn't matter. The instructional signs get defaced. The
>>>>> policy-oriented signs get defaced (even the ones that have been
>>>>> reworded after I talk with others about them.)
>>>>>
>>>>> My offer still stands. I'll donate a dollar to Noisebridge each day
>>>>> the printed signs don't get defaced or torn down. That comes to almost
>>>>> an extra starving-hacker rate membership.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Al
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 12:50 PM, jim <jim at well.com> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I still think you should define "printed signs" more
>>>>> > particularly.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Fri, 2011-07-29 at 11:26 -0700, Al Sweigart wrote:
>>>>> >> I know that signs getting defaced or torn down is a data point, it's
>>>>> >> just not a very helpful one. I have no clue who did it or why, so
>>>>> >> there's no way I can talk to them and work out a change or compromise.
>>>>> >> And if somebody is just defacing a sign instead of bringing it up with
>>>>> >> people, they most likely don't _care_ to talk about it or compromise.
>>>>> >> That's unexcellent behavior that we should change.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> So to encourage people not taking the defacing route, I'm offering to
>>>>> >> donate a dollar to Noisebridge each day the printed signs go without
>>>>> >> being defaced or torn down.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> -Al
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 10:55 AM, jim <jim at systemateka.com> wrote:
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > Note Rachel's point that any tagging is a likely data
>>>>> >> > point. I believe most tagging indicates something, however
>>>>> >> > obscure.
>>>>> >> > I'd like to reiterate the idea of clearing an area
>>>>> >> > around a posted sign and add the notion of having fewer
>>>>> >> > signs and/or have signs deal with fewer topics.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > On Fri, 2011-07-29 at 10:48 -0700, Christina Olson wrote:
>>>>> >> >> Hey kids,
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> In my discussion with Liz and Danny about signs I did in fact touch
>>>>> >> >> upon the points that 1. signs get removed or moved ALL THE DAMN
>>>>> >> >> TIME
>>>>> >> >> and 2. no one respects any signage due to the fact that they're not
>>>>> >> >> clear, not consistent, and just printed paper taped to somewhere.
>>>>> >> >> We're working on a branded, systemic set of signs that will be
>>>>> >> >> laminated and nailed/screwed to walls and other things so they
>>>>> >> >> cannot
>>>>> >> >> be easily moved or disregarded. If you'd like to be part of the
>>>>> >> >> sign
>>>>> >> >> development effort please join the soceng mailing list, and speak
>>>>> >> >> to
>>>>> >> >> Liz or myself.
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> The soceng meeting will be a day next week that is NOT tuesday,
>>>>> >> >> since
>>>>> >> >> I can't ever make Tuesday anything due to a preexisting regular
>>>>> >> >> commitment. It will probably be Wednesday or Thursday, I haven't
>>>>> >> >> decided yet.
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> PS: Buying a laminator is hella crazy expensive, like several
>>>>> hundred
>>>>> >> >> dollars for a shitty personal one and thousands for a good one
>>>>> >> >> (I've
>>>>> >> >> already looked into this multiple times for other reasons, same
>>>>> >> >> thing
>>>>> >> >> with paper cutters and binding machines), so unless someone is
>>>>> >> >> donating one to the space, we are going to get them printed and
>>>>> >> >> laminated elsewhere.
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 10:41 AM, jim <jim at systemateka.com> wrote:
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> Thanks lots, Al, for your work.
>>>>> >> >> Your offer of $1 a day seems to me to need some
>>>>> >> >> fine-tuning,
>>>>> >> >> mainly to specify particular signs, not just "the printed
>>>>> >> >> signs".
>>>>> >> >> As to tagging, seemingly snarky (gratuitous) additions may
>>>>> >> >> reflect some reasonable criticism, sometimes a matter of the
>>>>> >> >> background attitude that the wording and graphic effect of
>>>>> the
>>>>> >> >> sign presents.
>>>>> >> >> Maybe give some further thought to the design and wording
>>>>> >> >> of
>>>>> >> >> printed signs, including some aspect of printing that
>>>>> presents
>>>>> >> >> the sign as a finished graphic--while that presents a risk of
>>>>> >> >> doing extra work that gets trashed (i.e. tagged), a more
>>>>> >> >> polished
>>>>> >> >> finish may deter the more genuinely snarky changes.
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> On Fri, 2011-07-29 at 10:30 -0700, Al Sweigart wrote:
>>>>> >> >> > The tagging I've seen haven't really been helpful
>>>>> commentary
>>>>> >> >> so much
>>>>> >> >> > as just passive aggressive snarky comments or the sign just
>>>>> >> >> gets torn
>>>>> >> >> > down. Either way, it doesn't really facilitate
>>>>> communication
>>>>> >> >> and
>>>>> >> >> > discourages people from putting up signs in the first
>>>>> place.
>>>>> >> >> It's not
>>>>> >> >> > like the wiki, where you can have a separate talk page and
>>>>> >> >> undoing
>>>>> >> >> > edits are trivial.
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> > Anyway, my offer still stands. I'll donate a dollar a day
>>>>> to
>>>>> >> >> > Noisebridge each day the printed signs go without being
>>>>> >> >> defaced or
>>>>> >> >> > torn down. I'll occasionally replace signs and start paying
>>>>> >> >> again if
>>>>> >> >> > they get tagged up.
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> > I'm up for meeting with Liz and Daravinne for
>>>>> brainstorming.
>>>>> >> >> There's a
>>>>> >> >> > wiki page up too: nburl.net/signage
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> > -Al
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> > On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 10:10 AM, Danny O'Brien
>>>>> >> >> <danny at spesh.com> wrote:
>>>>> >> >> > > On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 10:06 AM, rachel lyra hospodar
>>>>> >> >> > > <rachelyra at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >> >> > >> I think if a sign gets removed or defaced it's often an
>>>>> >> >> excellent piece of
>>>>> >> >> > >> feedback from the community about the quality,
>>>>> >> >> intentions, or placement of
>>>>> >> >> > >> the sign. Signs I've made have been removed. I try to
>>>>> be
>>>>> >> >> pragmatic about it
>>>>> >> >> > >> and take the fact of their removal to be something I can
>>>>> >> >> improve against.
>>>>> >> >> > >>
>>>>> >> >> > >> I think we need better signage for a lot of reasons...
>>>>> >> >> including exit
>>>>> >> >> > >> signs. Anyone want to start a signage working group
>>>>> with
>>>>> >> >> me?
>>>>> >> >> > >>
>>>>> >> >> > >
>>>>> >> >> > > I think the best place for this would be on the social
>>>>> >> >> engineering list.
>>>>> >> >> > >
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/socialengineering
>>>>> >> >> > >
>>>>> >> >> > > Me, Liz and Daravinne can't make it to this week's
>>>>> tuesday
>>>>> >> >> meeting (or
>>>>> >> >> > > the social engineering meeting before it, so maybe meet
>>>>> up
>>>>> >> >> before then
>>>>> >> >> > > to brainstorm on it?)
>>>>> >> >> > >
>>>>> >> >> > > d.
>>>>> >> >> > >
>>>>> >> >> > >> mediumreality.com
>>>>> >> >> > >>
>>>>> >> >> > >> On Jul 29, 2011 10:02 AM, "Danny O'Brien"
>>>>> >> >> <danny at spesh.com> wrote:
>>>>> >> >> > >>> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 9:04 AM, Al Sweigart
>>>>> >> >> <asweigart at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >> >> > >>>> One of the efforts I want to do to make the space less
>>>>> >> >> intimidating to
>>>>> >> >> > >>>> new people is to improve the signage around the space
>>>>> >> >> to make it more
>>>>> >> >> > >>>> obvious what things are at NB, where those things are,
>>>>> >> >> and provide
>>>>> >> >> > >>>> answers for "what is this thing?" (protip: If the
>>>>> thing
>>>>> >> >> is glowing
>>>>> >> >> > >>>> and/or slimy, don't touch it.)
>>>>> >> >> > >>>>
>>>>> >> >> > >>>> A lot of the signs have been getting tagged up
>>>>> recently
>>>>> >> >> (if you have a
>>>>> >> >> > >>>> problem or suggestion with the wording, feel free to
>>>>> >> >> email me
>>>>> >> >> > >>>> privately or email the list), so to encourage
>>>>> >> >> preserving the signs,
>>>>> >> >> > >>>> I'm going to donate $1 each day the signs go without
>>>>> >> >> being defaced or
>>>>> >> >> > >>>> torn down. (If anyone can help with a part of that
>>>>> >> >> dollar, it'd be
>>>>> >> >> > >>>> great. $365 a year adds up.)
>>>>> >> >> > >>>>
>>>>> >> >> > >>>
>>>>> >> >> > >>> Hey Al, I think Daravinne and Liz are already working
>>>>> on
>>>>> >> >> improving the
>>>>> >> >> > >>> signing (as is somebody I don't know from taste
>>>>> bridge),
>>>>> >> >> you might
>>>>> >> >> > >>> want to work with them on this. There's some talk about
>>>>> >> >> getting a
>>>>> >> >> > >>> laminator as well.
>>>>> >> >> > >>>
>>>>> >> >> > >>> I think the "tagging" comes from a general
>>>>> encouragement
>>>>> >> >> in the last
>>>>> >> >> > >>> batch of signs to note changes or improvements, and I
>>>>> >> >> personally think
>>>>> >> >> > >>> it's a good way to get direct commentary; though in
>>>>> >> >> general I also
>>>>> >> >> > >>> think putting an email and contact on the signs is also
>>>>> >> >> good. Liz's
>>>>> >> >> > >>> kitchen signs got taken down specifically because
>>>>> >> >> someone is working
>>>>> >> >> > >>> on better versions of them, based on the written
>>>>> >> >> improvements. Our
>>>>> >> >> > >>> signs are generally just not very good or clear (or
>>>>> just
>>>>> >> >> > >>> overpowering), and I think requires more thought than
>>>>> >> >> simply
>>>>> >> >> > >>> attempting not to deface or remove ones that aren't
>>>>> >> >> working.
>>>>> >> >> > >>>
>>>>> >> >> > >>> d.
>>>>> >> >> > >>>
>>>>> >> >> > >>>
>>>>> >> >> > >>>
>>>>> >> >> > >>>> -Al
>>>>> >> >> > >>>>
>>>>> >> >> > >>>> p.s. I put fresh black and color cartridges in the
>>>>> >> >> white HP inkjet
>>>>> >> >> > >>>> printer, but print in color sparingly cause it's
>>>>> >> >> expensive (i.e.
>>>>> >> >> > >>>> overpriced by monopolistic bastards).
>>>>> >> >> > >>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >> >> > >>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>> >> >> > >>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>> >> >> > >>>>
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>> >> >> > >>>>
>>>>> >> >> > >>>>
>>>>> >> >> > >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >> >> > >>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>> >> >> > >>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>> >> >> > >>>
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>> >> >> > >>
>>>>> >> >> > >
>>>>> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> >> >> > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>> >> >> > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >> >> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>> >> >> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>> >> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>> >> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>