[Noisebridge-discuss] Hi everyone.

jim jim at well.com
Sun Jul 29 01:17:43 UTC 2012


    (Fortunately for me, I don't know what happened this 
last week; I hope I don't find out. Unfortunately for 
the mailing list, I can't help but chime in.) 

    Clearly there's been pain. Most important in my view 
is that we're all patient. Forgiveness, acceptance, 
self-confidence are all good things. Try to ignore the 
pain as essentially the result of childish behavior or 
thinking. 

    As to Rachel's description of hackers and such, I 
agree except that it should be broader. Original 
discussions prior to getting any space at all included 
the idea of merging arts and technology. The sewing 
machines, darkroom, and dirty shop all testify to a 
broad take on what is hacking. The broader the better 
in my view. 

    As to Rachel's two sentence proscription against 
harrassment, I'm sympathetic (in some respects 
empathetic), but I don't like the specificity of the 
proscription. I'd prefer something simpler, along the 
lines of "mind your own business" or "don't cause pain 
to others" or "Noisebridge is a place for people to 
gather and mix". 
    There seems too much baggage to the term 
"harrassment". Seems better not to use the term. 
    Calling Noisebridge a hacker space seems good to 
me, but defining "hack" in any way seems wrong. 
    Rachel's comparison with organisms seems a good 
one: I like the idea that we accept and allow as 
broadly as possible; we grow in our own, unpredictable 
ways. 

    Please let me know details about the woman who 
contributes to the Linux kernel and gets harrassment. 
I'm interested in promoting Linux and I believe women 
should be encouraged to participate in its development 
(and in technologies generally). 




On Sat, 2012-07-28 at 09:29 -0700, Ari Lacenski wrote:
> Something that has so far been missing from the discussion about Jesse
> in particular, and about 'personal standards' being set: alcohol.
> 
> I'm told (i.e. this is hearsay) that Jesse may have been drunk when he
> found those women at Camp Tipsy. I'm also told that alcohol might be a
> habitual problem for him.
> 
> I think it's clear that people with such problems are punting on their
> responsibility to keep internal codes like Danny's in their minds.
> They aren't even going to try.
> 
> In that absence of judgment, an external viewpoint like that code of
> conduct makes it much, much easier to see what's being violated.
> 
> Ari
> 
> On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 12:25 AM, Mike Schachter
> <mschachter at eigenminds.com> wrote:
> > I think Rachel's idea is a really good one, and after reading more
> > about the Ada Initiative strongly think that Noisebridge should adopt
> > an anti-harassment policy:
> >
> > http://adainitiative.org/2011/12/example-conference-anti-harassment-policy-turns-one-year-old/
> >
> > http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/index.php?title=Conference_anti-harassment_policy
> >
> > Thanks Rachel and Liz!
> >
> >  mike
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 10:56 PM, Danny O'Brien <danny at spesh.com> wrote:
> >> On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 09:38:17PM -0700, rachel lyra hospodar wrote:
> >>> How can we intercede against harassment without, first, defining it?
> >>>
> >>> I'm not making any rules. I never even suggested such a thing. It's a kneejerk
> >>> reaction that makes you even see that happening here. I am adopting that policy
> >>> for my own use in Noisebridge space, and in the process attempting to codify
> >>> established social norms. Anyone wishing to interact with me has a clear and
> >>> referrable index for what types of behaviors I desire from default mode.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Just to be clear, I wasn't disagreeing with you (I totally noted the bit
> >> about this standard being a personal adoption), instead I was
> >> disagreeing (a bit) with Liz. Or maybe just the kneejerk perception that
> >> might follow your post that this was about rule-making. Sorry if I was
> >> unclear. I actually know that Liz is not about the rule-making either,
> >> but... oh, I don't know, maybe I was being a bit kneejerk.
> >>
> >> My own code (entirely blurry, and not the better for it) is something
> >> along the lines of "if you're interacting with somebody, and they ask
> >> you to stop, or appear uncomfortable, I'll try and muster up enough
> >> courage to ask you to stop too. If you don't stop after that, there's a
> >> good chance I'll escalate to escorting you from the space."
> >>
> >> My code fails because lots of people -- particularly people in the
> >> laundry list -- don't expect that kind of back-up in spaces like
> >> Noisebridge, so they don't feel confident enough to ask people to stop;
> >> people are used to dealing with harassment themselves by deferring or
> >> laughing it off; and because it only works if there's a majority of
> >> people around who work on the same model.
> >>
> >>> You make a robot, and I'll publish my policy, and let's see which works to keep
> >>> creepers off my ass.... except language is a system of technology and so in
> >>> some ways that policy is my robot. It's already built and running. Let me know
> >>> when you finish yours.
> >>
> >> Wait, wait, I thought language was a virus. Now I have my metaphors
> >> completely confused. And they're metaphors about the nature semantic
> >> systems, which means they're meta-metaphors, which makes this even more
> >> confusing.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> BTW I just used your home system to run my robot. PWN!
> >>>
> >>
> >> DAMN YOU NOW IT'S A ROBOT AND A VIRUS
> >>
> >> d.
> >>
> >>> On Jul 27, 2012 9:14 PM, "Danny O'Brien" <danny at spesh.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>     On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 08:01:37PM -0700, Liz Henry wrote:
> >>>     > Lots of food for thought there, Rachel!
> >>>     >
> >>>     > On the idea of a no-harassment code,  I think one could be useful for
> >>>     > us.  Not harassing people is in theory covered under "be excellent".
> >>>     > Expanding that with a list of some specific anti-patterns means that
> >>>     > people could feel a little more confident their concerns will be heard
> >>>     > and their presence in the space defended.
> >>>     >
> >>>
> >>>     I actually kind of disagree with this approach, not because of the idea
> >>>     behind it, but because of the impossibility of raising to the same level
> >>>     as a rule (or even a code of conduct) any literal statement beyond "be
> >>>     excellent" in the Noisebridge community.
> >>>
> >>>     People who don't really understand Noisebridge's cultural discomfort
> >>>     with explicit rules are bound to interpret that failure as meaning that
> >>>     culturally we don't care about such harassment, Whereas in fact about
> >>>     the only times we've stood united to act was when such harassment was
> >>>     potentially an issue: I think every time we've banned or asked, as a
> >>>     community, someone to leave, it's been because of concerns of this
> >>>     nature.
> >>>
> >>>     I think it's setting us up to fail, and fail in a way we don't actually
> >>>     reflect internally, to try and haggle over explicit language. Like many
> >>>     geek communities, we suck at all of this, but we don't *actually* suck
> >>>     worse because we can't get it together to not argue about the precise
> >>>     wording.*
> >>>
> >>>     I'd much rather continue to work on improving the ways we continue to
> >>>     actively intercede with harassment, including role-playing it
> >>>     (interceding, not the harassment), building up the habit of backing each
> >>>     other up, seeding communities within the wider community, and giant
> >>>     robots that electrocute people.
> >>>
> >>>     d.
> >>>
> >>>     > It doesn't matter that it's not "enforceable" any more than "be
> >>>     > excellent" is.
> >>>     >
> >>>     > When I see a positive statement from an organization that they welcome
> >>>     > (laundry list of non-dominant culture identities), or one that they
> >>>     > don't tolerate harassment or hate on (laundry list), personally, I do
> >>>     > feel more welcome and more confident that I can be in that space. It
> >>>     > increases my social trust.
> >>>     >
> >>>     > Like you, I prefer a transformative approach, mediation, and discussion
> >>>     > in most situations.
> >>>     >
> >>>     > Here is my addition to your suggested code.
> >>>     >
> >>>     > ----
> >>>     >
> >>>     > Noisebridge as a community does not tolerate harassment. Harassment
> >>>     > includes offensive verbal comments related to gender, sexual
> >>>     > orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race,
> >>>     > ethnicity, religion, housing status, social class.  It also includes
> >>>     > deliberate intimidation, stalking, following, inappropriate physical
> >>>     > contact, and unwelcome sexual attention. Participants asked to stop any
> >>>     > harassing behavior are expected to do so immediately. We are a diverse
> >>>     > community and thus it is especially important that we listen to, and
> >>>     > respect, each others' boundaries.
> >>>     >
> >>>     >
> >>>     >
> >>>     > Cheers,
> >>>     >
> >>>     > Liz
> >>>     >
> >>>     >
> >>>     > On 7/27/12 6:11 PM, rachel lyra hospodar wrote:
> >>>     > > I have been thinking a lot about what went down this week, and the
> >>>     > > ramifications for Noisebridge.  Noisebridge itself, let's remember, is
> >>>     > > a technology.  A tool.  It is a system of organizing things that
> >>>     > > serves a goal.  That goal?  It varies for its various users, but my
> >>>     > > impression of the consensus is this: encouraging the creative use of
> >>>     > > technology.  That means disseminating technological skills, creating
> >>>     > > access to technological tools, but most importantly, disseminating the
> >>>     > > "hacker" mindset of creative problem solving.  There seems to be a
> >>>     > > consensus around radical inclusivity.  There is definitely a consensus
> >>>     > > around being open to the public, around the idea of *public* access to
> >>>     > > this space being important.
> >>>     > >
> >>>     > > i am going to start with some things I take as given, and would like
> >>>     > > for you to examine them.
> >>>     > >
> >>>     > >     -Systems evolve in a similar way to organic life forms.
> >>>     > >     -Societies are systems that we use to offload cognitive processing
> >>>     to
> >>>     > > the cloud.  Through a set of shared agreements, we are able to create
> >>>     > > a piece of software that runs without using our primary processor.
> >>>     > > Cool, huh?  An example of this is the set of shared cultural contexts
> >>>     > > that allow you to walk down a busy street without getting hit by a
> >>>     > > car.
> >>>     > >     -An organism may persist even if it is operating inefficiently.
> >>>     > >     -Over time, the types of organisms that exist most plentifully will
> >>>     > > be those that functioned the most efficiently.
> >>>     > >     -it is inefficient to discard most of your resources without even
> >>>     > > assessing their potential.  Some of them probably could have
> >>>     > > contributed to the efficient function of your organism.
> >>>     > >     -Human society, while imperfect, is still wobbling along
> >>>     functioning
> >>>     > > as our cloud.  America is a bounded instance of an attempt to improve
> >>>     > > on that model.  Noisebridge is the same.
> >>>     > >
> >>>     > > OK.  So then what?
> >>>     > >
> >>>     > > Human society, American society, our society, a cloud that in
> >>>     > > aggregate still runs great portions of Noisebridge, is constantly
> >>>     > > discarding most of its human resources without assessing their
> >>>     > > potential.  How many awesome hackers are languishing in a ghetto in
> >>>     > > New Delhi, or in prison cells all over America?  How many are among us
> >>>     > > right now, walking all around us, and not even knowing they are
> >>>     > > hackers?
> >>>     > >
> >>>     > > At least twice as many as we've got right now.
> >>>     > >
> >>>     > > We don't even have to spring them from prison. We don't even have to
> >>>     > > fly to India to visit them. We just have to stop telling them they are
> >>>     > > not hackers.  We don't even have to tell them that they are hackers
> >>>     > > (although that helps).  They will figure it out on their own.  After
> >>>     > > all, they are hackers.
> >>>     > >
> >>>     > > We can't really that easily help the dude who is hacking his
> >>>     > > toothbrush into a shank in solitary lockdown.  We don't need to.
> >>>     > > Well, we do.  Fuck, we do.  But there aren't as many of us as there
> >>>     > > are prison guards, keeping him in there.  Maybe if there were more
> >>>     > > hackers we could figure out how to hack the prison industrial complex.
> >>>     > > Fortunately, there are a bunch of extra hackers, among us right now,
> >>>     > > walking all around us, and not even knowing they are hackers.
> >>>     > >
> >>>     > > At least twice as many.
> >>>     > >
> >>>     > > We don't even have to spring them from prison.
> >>>     > >
> >>>     > > We don't even have to fly to India to visit them.
> >>>     > >
> >>>     > > We just have to stop telling them they are not hackers.
> >>>     > >
> >>>     > > Did you know that every time someone who is openly female contributes
> >>>     > > to the linux kernel she gets explicit harassing messages from a
> >>>     > > particular individual?  I found that out this past week.  Sigh, yawn,
> >>>     > > how terrible and annoying and I didn't do it and I didn't get those
> >>>     > > messages so why should I care?
> >>>     > >
> >>>     > > It's costing us half our hackers, friend.
> >>>     > >
> >>>     > > Jesse Z said explicitly on Tuesday that the reason he has been
> >>>     > > harassing me is because he doesn't think I'm a hacker.  I came to
> >>>     > > noisebridge to find collaborators and technical advice and equipment
> >>>     > > for my open source interface project.  I project managed a
> >>>     > > consensus-based website build for OWS which was kind of like herding
> >>>     > > cats in the middle of a riot. I've taught scores of artists how to use
> >>>     > > wiki to manage shared projects.  I'm a fucking hacker.  I actually
> >>>     > > founded a sewing/art hackspace in Oakland thankyouvery much, where a
> >>>     > > group of us pool our resources to create and maintain a space for
> >>>     > > creative use of technology, and a set of tools for the sustainable
> >>>     > > creation of micro-climate pods that enable humans to settle areas
> >>>     > > outside of their narrow evolutionary band.  Pretty cool, huh?  What
> >>>     > > tech is that?  Clothes.  I'm a fucking hacker.
> >>>     > >
> >>>     > > Why do I even have to defend my hackerness in this message?  I don't,
> >>>     > > actually. I am confident in my social standing as a hacker badass in
> >>>     > > this community.  Or not, whatever.  You don't have to like me.  Just
> >>>     > > get out of my way.  So why am I even defending myself in this message?
> >>>     > >  Because when someone calls up a shitty piece of software that's
> >>>     > > running on my cloud, I am forced to run it too.  Even when it says
> >>>     > > things that my local software knows are bullshit.  The cloud knows
> >>>     > > better, man.  You are running what it fucking tells you or you can't
> >>>     > > even use the damn internet.
> >>>     > >
> >>>     > > So,
> >>>     > >
> >>>     > > Until we live in a society that does not exclude women from technology
> >>>     > > spaces, anytime we want to be in technology spaces we are shaped by
> >>>     > > that absence.  Those of us who are paying attention will be the ones
> >>>     > > waving our arms and going "hey this dude's a fucking creep" and by
> >>>     > > fucking creep we mean "excluding scores of potential hackers through
> >>>     > > wildly antisocial behavior".  Those of you who are not paying
> >>>     > > attention to the way that technology spaces are shaped by the absence
> >>>     > > of women are still being affected by it.  You're the ones wondering
> >>>     > > why I don't want to talk to you while I am trying to get work done.
> >>>     > > It's because I have to constantly deflect vaguely sexual attention to
> >>>     > > even be in public.  No, I am not being melodramatic.  When I walk down
> >>>     > > the street I have my backpack on and am walking all purposeful and the
> >>>     > > way I dress looks like a dude from far away.  I don't wear a lot of
> >>>     > > little dresses.  Why do you think that is?  i look good in a little
> >>>     > > dress, too.  In a space like Noisebridge, where we all have our guard
> >>>     > > down a little bit more, it seems socially acceptable to come over and
> >>>     > > interrupt what I am doing to demand that I tell you about it... but in
> >>>     > > that moment my choice is do my work, or entertain you.  I'm happy to
> >>>     > > chat, I love people, so sometimes this is ok.  How can you tell when
> >>>     > > it is ok or not?  There are systems that we use culturally to keep us
> >>>     > > from killing each other.  When they mismatch a little, it's annoying
> >>>     > > and i am sending social cues that you are ignoring, and you are
> >>>     > > sending social cues that I don't like. When they mismatch a lot,
> >>>     > > sometimes that is categorized as rape.   Oh, and also sometimes people
> >>>     > > are dicks.
> >>>     > >
> >>>     > > So let's be clear about how people are supposed to behave in public at
> >>>     > > noisebridge, and then be firm about people who aren't doing that.  Not
> >>>     > > because we are not all beautiful little snowflakes with a right to act
> >>>     > > however we choose (we are!) but because of triage.  The chilling
> >>>     > > effect of one harassing individual over many months is pronounced - it
> >>>     > > costs us many potential hackers.  We are committed to radical
> >>>     > > inclusivity, and acknowledge that all humans deserve community, even
> >>>     > > those with whom we do not agree.  That doesn't mean we need to let
> >>>     > > them shit in our punchbowl or hog all the punch.  We can tell them to
> >>>     > > stop drinking the punch before they drown in the bile of their own
> >>>     > > chronic liver failure.  They probably won't stop until we take the
> >>>     > > damn punch bowl away, and we'll feel like an asshole for taking it
> >>>     > > away, but at least that way a couple other people can have punch too.
> >>>     > >
> >>>     > > Do we need felony assault charges to tell us someone is being a dick?
> >>>     > > Do we use the court system to arbitrate who is allowed in our space?
> >>>     > > No.  We are smarter than that BS, right?  That's the system that put
> >>>     > > all those hackers in jail in the first place.
> >>>     > >
> >>>     > > I am adopting a version of the http://adainitiative.org/ policy - it
> >>>     > > explicitly defines a behavioral standard so that everyone knows what
> >>>     > > is expected of them.  Their research (on tech conferences in
> >>>     > > particular) indicated:
> >>>     > >     Often, the person doing the groping or harassing honestly believed
> >>>     > > that their behavior was acceptable for the venue. Just as often, many
> >>>     > > other people went on record agreeing with them.
> >>>     > >     People who saw these incidents didn’t know how to respond to these
> >>>     > > incidents or weren’t sure who to report them to.
> >>>     > >     Conference organizers sometimes didn’t learn about an incident
> >>>     > > until long after it happened. When they did find out in time to take
> >>>     > > action, they often didn’t know how to respond to the incident.
> >>>     > >
> >>>     > > Below is my first draft, 2 simple sentences.  Feel free to suggest
> >>>     > > changes.  For this to work in our community it needs to be widely
> >>>     > > supported.  I expect some of you to mock the fact that I feel a need
> >>>     > > to write this very serious email.  For all of you who wish you didn't
> >>>     > > have to take this so seriously, well, so do I.  You just have a choice
> >>>     > > about it.  I don't.  And that, in a nutshell, is privilege.
> >>>     > >
> >>>     > > Harassment includes offensive verbal comments [related to gender,
> >>>     > > sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race,
> >>>     > > religion, housing status[your specific concern here]], deliberate
> >>>     > > intimidation, stalking, following, inappropriate physical contact, and
> >>>     > > unwelcome sexual attention. Participants asked to stop any harassing
> >>>     > > behavior are expected to do so immediately.
> >>>     > >
> >>>     > > R.
> >>>     > >
> >>>     > > Further reading - I really enjoyed reading this review about
> >>>     > > transformative justice:
> >>>     > > http://uppingtheanti.org/journal/article/13-work-transform/
> >>>     > > It says:
> >>>     > > Transformative justice is about community transformation, not
> >>>     > > retribution. While it can be cathartic to treat people who cause harm
> >>>     > > as “monsters” who need to be “punished,” proponents of transformative
> >>>     > > justice argue that we should develop skills to compassionately support
> >>>     > > perpetrators. The goal is to help perpetrators take responsibility for
> >>>     > > their actions without enabling or minimizing their abusive behaviour,
> >>>     > > and also learn to transform the social conditions that supported the
> >>>     > > abuse in the first place.
> >>>     > >
> >>>     > >
> >>>     > > Oh, and here's a bonus.
> >>>     > > http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/07/25/
> >>>     online-tracker-led-rapist-to-his-victim/
> >>>     > > _______________________________________________
> >>>     > > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >>>     > > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >>>     > > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >>>     > >
> >>>     >
> >>>     >
> >>>     > --
> >>>     >
> >>>     > ------------------------
> >>>     > Liz Henry
> >>>     > liz at bookmaniac.org
> >>>     > http://bookmaniac.org
> >>>     >
> >>>     > "Without models, it's hard to work; without a context, difficult to
> >>>     > evaluate; without peers, nearly impossible to speak." -- Joanna Russ
> >>>     > _______________________________________________
> >>>     > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >>>     > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >>>     > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >>>     >
> >>>     _______________________________________________
> >>>     Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >>>     Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >>>     https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
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