[Noisebridge-discuss] Lack of due process when Cynthia forced to leave
Frantisek Apfelbeck
frantisekapfelbeck at gmail.com
Fri May 4 16:34:04 UTC 2012
Hi to all,
I would be glad to assist in helping to mediate when I return. I think that
she should have her visits to Noisebridge limited but she isn't a bad
person.
--
Sincerely,
Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck
biotechnologist&kvasir and hacker
http://www.frantisekapfelbeck.org
"There is no way to peace, peace is the way." Ghandi
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 7:42 PM, jim <jim at well.com> wrote:
>
> As to me, if I know a meeting will involve something like
> banning, I make an effort to make it, despite wanting to be
> in bed before 8 PM.
> It seems that such issues may arise without "benefit" of
> meeting. What to do?
>
> Also, some of us conflict-averse hand-wringers worry about
> the affects of these events on people both in and tangential
> to our community. That there has been a sequence of events
> with a similar "taste" and "smell" has had an amplifying
> negative affect on a fairly large number of people. The
> reputation of Noisebridge is increasingly stained. What to do?
>
>
>
> On Thu, 2012-05-03 at 18:57 -0700, Kelly wrote:
> > I think one thing that people seem to be getting stuck on is that
> > Cynthia did nothing particularly wrong on the day she was kicked out.
> > This is totally correct. And perhaps this means that involving the
> > police was a bad move, but I think people are very mixed on that so I
> > wouldn't condemn it as unexcellent or anything because clearly it
> > depends who you ask.
> >
> > In any case, the fact that Cynthia didn't do anything wrong at the
> > time doesn't mean that she doesn't deserve to be asked to leave. Most
> > conflicts with Cynthia don't escalate to the "justifies removal"
> > because frankly most people give up on talking to her before an actual
> > conflict develops. She has been consistently getting into conflicts
> > about the kitchen though. She is very possessive about the cans in the
> > recycling (which she sells) and she sometimes threatens people she
> > feels are using the kitchen incorrectly. However, her definition of
> > incorrect kitchen usage is very much not in line with the community's,
> > and she has not been receptive to attempts to explain other people's
> > perspectives. I was briefly involved as a mediator in one of these
> > conflicts and it was never resolved, the complaining party just chose
> > to avoid Cynthia entirely. I'm also bothered by the rumor that she
> > uses noisebridge's address as a residence, which apparently Miloh can
> > confirm.
> >
> > I think the biggest failing of the community here is that we should
> > have addressed these issues with Cynthia in a meeting, but frankly
> > there are too many people that are misusing the space at this point,
> > so people are often burnt out and it's easier to just put it off. And
> > then eventually someone (usually Jesse) gets totally fed up and acts
> > outside the community structure. I have been encouraging him and
> > others to bring up these things at meetings, and sometimes that helps
> > prevent "lynch mob" behavior.
> >
> > One thing that's really frustrating to me is that there are people
> > consistently on the mailing list being all conflict averse and saying
> > that things should involve due process, and most of them never come
> > participate in the process. If you want more people doing hand-holding
> > and mediating conflicts, come help. I'm moving to Boston in a few
> > months and then the only people able to mediate will be Danny and Tom.
> >
> > -Kelly
> >
> > On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 6:01 PM, Corey McGuire <coreyfro at coreyfro.com>
> wrote:
> > > Read it. It sounds like bullying. I didn't see that Cynthia did
> anything
> > > wrong. She just showed up, and people took offense to that. That is
> > > bullshit.
> > >
> > > Look, there is a very good chance that I am going to bring non-hackers
> in to
> > > noisebridge. I may even hang out with them, there. If I am supposed
> to
> > > worry about the qualifications of every single person I invite in to
> > > noisebridge, noisebridge is going to suffer from the lack of diversity.
> > >
> > > People. This is a lonely person picked on by people who judge her.
> Tell me
> > > she's the only person that has ever happened to.
> > >
> > > Guess what? Noisebridge is a play ground, and now we have our own
> bullies.
> > >
> > > Fuck...that...noise.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:52 PM, jim <jim at systemateka.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Why?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Thu, 2012-05-03 at 17:42 -0700, Corey McGuire wrote:
> > >> > OK, I read the meeting notes. This...is...in fact...bullshit.
> > >> >
> > >> > On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:39 PM, Corey McGuire <
> coreyfro at coreyfro.com>
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> > Joe, I have no idea who you are. As far as I know, I've
> never
> > >> > seen you there. Who's the troll?
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:27 PM, Joseph Brenner
> > >> > <doomvox at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> > Uh huh. And when people aren't actually willing to
> > >> > show their face to
> > >> > talk something out, they sound a lot like an
> internet
> > >> > troll that
> > >> > doesn't need to be taken seriously.
> > >> >
> > >> > On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Jake <jake at spaz.org
> >
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> > > yes because whenever people say something is too
> > >> > horrible to possibly
> > >> > > discuss in an open listserve, where we talk about
> > >> > everything else, it just
> > >> > > sounds like there's really nothing to say and
> > >> > they're trying to cover the
> > >> > > lack of justification for what they did with
> > >> > secrecy.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > let's hear it.
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > On Thu, 3 May 2012, Joseph Brenner wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > >> The people who were actually there and made the
> > >> > call, did not want to
> > >> > >> discuss it on list, they wanted to save it for
> the
> > >> > meeting.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> Would hashing things out a second time here, for
> > >> > the people who don't
> > >> > >> go to meetings, actually help in any way?
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Corey McGuire
> > >> > <coreyfro at coreyfro.com>
> > >> > >> wrote:
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > >>> Irony is lost on this one.
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > >>> How about this, "Will someone, for the love of
> > >> > FUCKING GOD or ALLAH or
> > >> > >>> SATAN
> > >> > >>> or STALLMAN tell me what the fuck she did
> wrong?"
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > >>> Feynman, help us.
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > >>> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 4:40 PM, Jake
> > >> > <jake at spaz.org> wrote:
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>> except that it's not funny, and Jesse's actions
> > >> > are making noisebridge
> > >> > >>>> look bad. and getting the police to come over.
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>> On Thu, 3 May 2012, Corey McGuire wrote:
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>>> You know...it's funny. I still have no idea
> > >> > what she did wrong.
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 3:43 PM, rachel lyra
> > >> > hospodar
> > >> > >>>>> <rachelyra at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>> The last time I talked to her about it,
> > >> > Erica was no longer
> > >> > >>>>> feeling
> > >> > >>>>> welcome because Jesse (the same jesse) told
> her
> > >> > she wasn't
> > >> > >>>>> enough of a hacker and she should leave.
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>> This after she had to ask him to stop
> > >> > calling her at 3am.
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>> R.
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>> On May 3, 2012 3:02 PM, "Jake"
> > >> > <jake at spaz.org> wrote:
> > >> > >>>>> I couldn't have said it better
> > >> > myself.
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>> Why is Erica no longer feeling
> > >> > welcome?
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>> I have to say, I have noticed that
> > >> > some people (including
> > >> > >>>>> Jesse for sure)
> > >> > >>>>> seem to be fulfilling my prediction
> > >> > that we could swing
> > >> > >>>>> around
> > >> > >>>>> into the
> > >> > >>>>> reactionary zone after we started
> > >> > dealing with the
> > >> > >>>>> occupiers.
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>> Please re-read the below and let's
> > >> > not make the same
> > >> > >>>>> mistakes
> > >> > >>>>> again.
> > >> > >>>>> Calling the police is a LAST RESORT
> > >> > and shows bad judgement
> > >> > >>>>> on
> > >> > >>>>> the part of
> > >> > >>>>> the people who did it.
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>> What would Jesse or Will have done
> if
> > >> > a couple of female
> > >> > >>>>> members told them
> > >> > >>>>> to leave?
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>> Carl said:
> > >> > >>>>> You know I don't post here all that
> > >> > much, but I really felt
> > >> > >>>>> that I had
> > >> > >>>>> to respond to this...
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>> I've read through all of the
> comments
> > >> > about what transpired
> > >> > >>>>> with
> > >> > >>>>> Cynthia, on the discuss list and
> the
> > >> > meeting notes.
> > >> > >>>>> Although
> > >> > >>>>> I haven't
> > >> > >>>>> been present at Noisebridge during
> > >> > the past week, from what
> > >> > >>>>> I've read so
> > >> > >>>>> far, I am really not pleased about
> > >> > how people involved in
> > >> > >>>>> this
> > >> > >>>>> situation
> > >> > >>>>> treated her. (This would include
> > >> > Jesse, Will, and
> > >> > >>>>> apparently
> > >> > >>>>> a third
> > >> > >>>>> man.)
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>> First of all, calling the police
> > >> > really should not be done
> > >> > >>>>> unless:
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>> 1. Someone is harming or
> threatening
> > >> > harm to another person,
> > >> > >>>>> causing
> > >> > >>>>> damage to the space, stealing, or
> > >> > otherwise causing trouble
> > >> > >>>>> or
> > >> > >>>>> performing an illegal activity.
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>> 2. A person who has been officially
> > >> > banned from the space
> > >> > >>>>> refuses to
> > >> > >>>>> leave. And by "official", I mean a
> > >> > due process has been
> > >> > >>>>> followed
> > >> > >>>>> whereas a previous discussion and
> > >> > consensus was taken to ban
> > >> > >>>>> a
> > >> > >>>>> particular person.
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>> 3. AND ONLY AFTER the Noisebridge
> > >> > community are unable to
> > >> > >>>>> handle the
> > >> > >>>>> situation on our own should we get
> > >> > the police involved.
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>> I find it troubling when
> individuals
> > >> > take it upon themselves
> > >> > >>>>> to forcibly
> > >> > >>>>> remove people from the space, who
> by
> > >> > all accounts of what
> > >> > >>>>> I've
> > >> > >>>>> read, did
> > >> > >>>>> NOT cause any trouble prior to
> being
> > >> > asked to leave. I
> > >> > >>>>> believe it was
> > >> > >>>>> wrong for Jesse and Will to have
> done
> > >> > what they did in this
> > >> > >>>>> case, prior
> > >> > >>>>> to taking it up at a meeting where
> > >> > the members could discuss
> > >> > >>>>> and make a
> > >> > >>>>> decision as to whether to ban
> Cynthia
> > >> > from the space, AND
> > >> > >>>>> ONLY
> > >> > >>>>> AFTER
> > >> > >>>>> this discussion and consensus would
> > >> > it be appropriate to ask
> > >> > >>>>> someone to
> > >> > >>>>> not return. (and as she brought
> up,
> > >> > informing her of this
> > >> > >>>>> could have
> > >> > >>>>> been done through email prior to
> her
> > >> > arrival in order to
> > >> > >>>>> avoid
> > >> > >>>>> this
> > >> > >>>>> confrontation.)
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>> I am also troubled by the flippant
> > >> > and immature responses on
> > >> > >>>>> this list
> > >> > >>>>> about Cynthia being "crazy". Her
> > >> > past talk of legal actions
> > >> > >>>>> against
> > >> > >>>>> Texas corporations has no bearing
> on
> > >> > what transpired. As
> > >> > >>>>> far
> > >> > >>>>> as I can
> > >> > >>>>> tell, she hasn't forng more people
> > >> > than prior to when the
> > >> > >>>>> Oogles started
> > >> > >>>>> arriving at the space. The first
> > >> > time Noisebridge ever
> > >> > >>>>> banned
> > >> > >>>>> anyone,
> > >> > >>>>> it took considerable discussion
> and a
> > >> > consensus process.
> > >> > >>>>> Nowadays it
> > >> > >>>>> seems like any member can just ban
> > >> > anyone they don't like.
> > >> > >>>>> How and why
> > >> > >>>>> did we get to this point? And I'm
> > >> > not just talking about
> > >> > >>>>> Cynthia here,
> > >> > >>>>> but others as well. (take Erica
> for
> > >> > example, who no longer
> > >> > >>>>> feels
> > >> > >>>>> welcome here.)
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>> And lastly, I think we need to stop
> > >> > this witch-hunt
> > >> > >>>>> non-hacker
> > >> > >>>>> hate
> > >> > >>>>> mentality that we seem to be
> > >> > developing here, which will
> > >> > >>>>> only
> > >> > >>>>> drive away
> > >> > >>>>> new people who may not be familiar
> > >> > with hacker culture. If
> > >> > >>>>> we
> > >> > >>>>> try to
> > >> > >>>>> make an effort to become friends
> with
> > >> > them, then we can
> > >> > >>>>> encourage
> > >> > >>>>> newcomers to contribute and learn
> to
> > >> > become hackers by
> > >> > >>>>> involving them
> > >> > >>>>> with our projects. Instead of
> > >> > rejecting them, we should be
> > >> > >>>>> trying to
> > >> > >>>>> encourage them to become productive
> > >> > participants in our
> > >> > >>>>> community.
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>> -Carl
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > _______________________________________________
> > >> > >>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> >
> > >> > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>
> _______________________________________________
> > >> > >>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> > >> > >>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> >
> > >> > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>> --
> > >> > >>>>> Everything should be made as simple as
> possible,
> > >> > but no simpler -
> > >> > >>>>> Albert
> > >> > >>>>> Einstein
> > >> > >>>>> Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication -
> > >> > Leonardo Da Vinci
> > >> > >>>>> Perfection is reached not when there is
> nothing
> > >> > left to add, but when
> > >> > >>>>> there is nothing left to take away - Antoine
> de
> > >> > Saint Exup?ry
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>> Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > >>> --
> > >> > >>> Everything should be made as simple as possible,
> > >> > but no simpler - Albert
> > >> > >>> Einstein
> > >> > >>> Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication -
> > >> > Leonardo Da Vinci
> > >> > >>> Perfection is reached not when there is nothing
> > >> > left to add, but when
> > >> > >>> there
> > >> > >>> is nothing left to take away - Antoine de Saint
> > >> > Exup?ry
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > >>> Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >> > >>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> > >> > >>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> > >> > >>>
> > >> >
> > >> > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > --
> > >> > Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no
> > >> > simpler - Albert Einstein
> > >> > Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo Da
> Vinci
> > >> >
> > >> > Perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add,
> > >> > but when there is nothing left to take away - Antoine de
> Saint
> > >> > Exupéry
> > >> >
> > >> > Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > --
> > >> > Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler -
> > >> > Albert Einstein
> > >> > Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo Da Vinci
> > >> > Perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but
> when
> > >> > there is nothing left to take away - Antoine de Saint Exupéry
> > >> > Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson
> > >> > _______________________________________________
> > >> > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> > >> > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> > >> > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler -
> Albert
> > > Einstein
> > > Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo Da Vinci
> > > Perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when
> there
> > > is nothing left to take away - Antoine de Saint Exupéry
> > > Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> > > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> > > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>
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