[Noisebridge-discuss] Lack of due process when Cynthia forced to leave
jim
jim at well.com
Fri May 4 02:42:35 UTC 2012
As to me, if I know a meeting will involve something like
banning, I make an effort to make it, despite wanting to be
in bed before 8 PM.
It seems that such issues may arise without "benefit" of
meeting. What to do?
Also, some of us conflict-averse hand-wringers worry about
the affects of these events on people both in and tangential
to our community. That there has been a sequence of events
with a similar "taste" and "smell" has had an amplifying
negative affect on a fairly large number of people. The
reputation of Noisebridge is increasingly stained. What to do?
On Thu, 2012-05-03 at 18:57 -0700, Kelly wrote:
> I think one thing that people seem to be getting stuck on is that
> Cynthia did nothing particularly wrong on the day she was kicked out.
> This is totally correct. And perhaps this means that involving the
> police was a bad move, but I think people are very mixed on that so I
> wouldn't condemn it as unexcellent or anything because clearly it
> depends who you ask.
>
> In any case, the fact that Cynthia didn't do anything wrong at the
> time doesn't mean that she doesn't deserve to be asked to leave. Most
> conflicts with Cynthia don't escalate to the "justifies removal"
> because frankly most people give up on talking to her before an actual
> conflict develops. She has been consistently getting into conflicts
> about the kitchen though. She is very possessive about the cans in the
> recycling (which she sells) and she sometimes threatens people she
> feels are using the kitchen incorrectly. However, her definition of
> incorrect kitchen usage is very much not in line with the community's,
> and she has not been receptive to attempts to explain other people's
> perspectives. I was briefly involved as a mediator in one of these
> conflicts and it was never resolved, the complaining party just chose
> to avoid Cynthia entirely. I'm also bothered by the rumor that she
> uses noisebridge's address as a residence, which apparently Miloh can
> confirm.
>
> I think the biggest failing of the community here is that we should
> have addressed these issues with Cynthia in a meeting, but frankly
> there are too many people that are misusing the space at this point,
> so people are often burnt out and it's easier to just put it off. And
> then eventually someone (usually Jesse) gets totally fed up and acts
> outside the community structure. I have been encouraging him and
> others to bring up these things at meetings, and sometimes that helps
> prevent "lynch mob" behavior.
>
> One thing that's really frustrating to me is that there are people
> consistently on the mailing list being all conflict averse and saying
> that things should involve due process, and most of them never come
> participate in the process. If you want more people doing hand-holding
> and mediating conflicts, come help. I'm moving to Boston in a few
> months and then the only people able to mediate will be Danny and Tom.
>
> -Kelly
>
> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 6:01 PM, Corey McGuire <coreyfro at coreyfro.com> wrote:
> > Read it. It sounds like bullying. I didn't see that Cynthia did anything
> > wrong. She just showed up, and people took offense to that. That is
> > bullshit.
> >
> > Look, there is a very good chance that I am going to bring non-hackers in to
> > noisebridge. I may even hang out with them, there. If I am supposed to
> > worry about the qualifications of every single person I invite in to
> > noisebridge, noisebridge is going to suffer from the lack of diversity.
> >
> > People. This is a lonely person picked on by people who judge her. Tell me
> > she's the only person that has ever happened to.
> >
> > Guess what? Noisebridge is a play ground, and now we have our own bullies.
> >
> > Fuck...that...noise.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:52 PM, jim <jim at systemateka.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Why?
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, 2012-05-03 at 17:42 -0700, Corey McGuire wrote:
> >> > OK, I read the meeting notes. This...is...in fact...bullshit.
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:39 PM, Corey McGuire <coreyfro at coreyfro.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> > Joe, I have no idea who you are. As far as I know, I've never
> >> > seen you there. Who's the troll?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:27 PM, Joseph Brenner
> >> > <doomvox at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Uh huh. And when people aren't actually willing to
> >> > show their face to
> >> > talk something out, they sound a lot like an internet
> >> > troll that
> >> > doesn't need to be taken seriously.
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Jake <jake at spaz.org>
> >> > wrote:
> >> > > yes because whenever people say something is too
> >> > horrible to possibly
> >> > > discuss in an open listserve, where we talk about
> >> > everything else, it just
> >> > > sounds like there's really nothing to say and
> >> > they're trying to cover the
> >> > > lack of justification for what they did with
> >> > secrecy.
> >> > >
> >> > > let's hear it.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > On Thu, 3 May 2012, Joseph Brenner wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >> The people who were actually there and made the
> >> > call, did not want to
> >> > >> discuss it on list, they wanted to save it for the
> >> > meeting.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Would hashing things out a second time here, for
> >> > the people who don't
> >> > >> go to meetings, actually help in any way?
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Corey McGuire
> >> > <coreyfro at coreyfro.com>
> >> > >> wrote:
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Irony is lost on this one.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> How about this, "Will someone, for the love of
> >> > FUCKING GOD or ALLAH or
> >> > >>> SATAN
> >> > >>> or STALLMAN tell me what the fuck she did wrong?"
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Feynman, help us.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 4:40 PM, Jake
> >> > <jake at spaz.org> wrote:
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> except that it's not funny, and Jesse's actions
> >> > are making noisebridge
> >> > >>>> look bad. and getting the police to come over.
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> On Thu, 3 May 2012, Corey McGuire wrote:
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>> You know...it's funny. I still have no idea
> >> > what she did wrong.
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 3:43 PM, rachel lyra
> >> > hospodar
> >> > >>>>> <rachelyra at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>> The last time I talked to her about it,
> >> > Erica was no longer
> >> > >>>>> feeling
> >> > >>>>> welcome because Jesse (the same jesse) told her
> >> > she wasn't
> >> > >>>>> enough of a hacker and she should leave.
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>> This after she had to ask him to stop
> >> > calling her at 3am.
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>> R.
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>> On May 3, 2012 3:02 PM, "Jake"
> >> > <jake at spaz.org> wrote:
> >> > >>>>> I couldn't have said it better
> >> > myself.
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>> Why is Erica no longer feeling
> >> > welcome?
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>> I have to say, I have noticed that
> >> > some people (including
> >> > >>>>> Jesse for sure)
> >> > >>>>> seem to be fulfilling my prediction
> >> > that we could swing
> >> > >>>>> around
> >> > >>>>> into the
> >> > >>>>> reactionary zone after we started
> >> > dealing with the
> >> > >>>>> occupiers.
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>> Please re-read the below and let's
> >> > not make the same
> >> > >>>>> mistakes
> >> > >>>>> again.
> >> > >>>>> Calling the police is a LAST RESORT
> >> > and shows bad judgement
> >> > >>>>> on
> >> > >>>>> the part of
> >> > >>>>> the people who did it.
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>> What would Jesse or Will have done if
> >> > a couple of female
> >> > >>>>> members told them
> >> > >>>>> to leave?
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>> Carl said:
> >> > >>>>> You know I don't post here all that
> >> > much, but I really felt
> >> > >>>>> that I had
> >> > >>>>> to respond to this...
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>> I've read through all of the comments
> >> > about what transpired
> >> > >>>>> with
> >> > >>>>> Cynthia, on the discuss list and the
> >> > meeting notes.
> >> > >>>>> Although
> >> > >>>>> I haven't
> >> > >>>>> been present at Noisebridge during
> >> > the past week, from what
> >> > >>>>> I've read so
> >> > >>>>> far, I am really not pleased about
> >> > how people involved in
> >> > >>>>> this
> >> > >>>>> situation
> >> > >>>>> treated her. (This would include
> >> > Jesse, Will, and
> >> > >>>>> apparently
> >> > >>>>> a third
> >> > >>>>> man.)
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>> First of all, calling the police
> >> > really should not be done
> >> > >>>>> unless:
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>> 1. Someone is harming or threatening
> >> > harm to another person,
> >> > >>>>> causing
> >> > >>>>> damage to the space, stealing, or
> >> > otherwise causing trouble
> >> > >>>>> or
> >> > >>>>> performing an illegal activity.
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>> 2. A person who has been officially
> >> > banned from the space
> >> > >>>>> refuses to
> >> > >>>>> leave. And by "official", I mean a
> >> > due process has been
> >> > >>>>> followed
> >> > >>>>> whereas a previous discussion and
> >> > consensus was taken to ban
> >> > >>>>> a
> >> > >>>>> particular person.
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>> 3. AND ONLY AFTER the Noisebridge
> >> > community are unable to
> >> > >>>>> handle the
> >> > >>>>> situation on our own should we get
> >> > the police involved.
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>> I find it troubling when individuals
> >> > take it upon themselves
> >> > >>>>> to forcibly
> >> > >>>>> remove people from the space, who by
> >> > all accounts of what
> >> > >>>>> I've
> >> > >>>>> read, did
> >> > >>>>> NOT cause any trouble prior to being
> >> > asked to leave. I
> >> > >>>>> believe it was
> >> > >>>>> wrong for Jesse and Will to have done
> >> > what they did in this
> >> > >>>>> case, prior
> >> > >>>>> to taking it up at a meeting where
> >> > the members could discuss
> >> > >>>>> and make a
> >> > >>>>> decision as to whether to ban Cynthia
> >> > from the space, AND
> >> > >>>>> ONLY
> >> > >>>>> AFTER
> >> > >>>>> this discussion and consensus would
> >> > it be appropriate to ask
> >> > >>>>> someone to
> >> > >>>>> not return. (and as she brought up,
> >> > informing her of this
> >> > >>>>> could have
> >> > >>>>> been done through email prior to her
> >> > arrival in order to
> >> > >>>>> avoid
> >> > >>>>> this
> >> > >>>>> confrontation.)
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>> I am also troubled by the flippant
> >> > and immature responses on
> >> > >>>>> this list
> >> > >>>>> about Cynthia being "crazy". Her
> >> > past talk of legal actions
> >> > >>>>> against
> >> > >>>>> Texas corporations has no bearing on
> >> > what transpired. As
> >> > >>>>> far
> >> > >>>>> as I can
> >> > >>>>> tell, she hasn't forng more people
> >> > than prior to when the
> >> > >>>>> Oogles started
> >> > >>>>> arriving at the space. The first
> >> > time Noisebridge ever
> >> > >>>>> banned
> >> > >>>>> anyone,
> >> > >>>>> it took considerable discussion and a
> >> > consensus process.
> >> > >>>>> Nowadays it
> >> > >>>>> seems like any member can just ban
> >> > anyone they don't like.
> >> > >>>>> How and why
> >> > >>>>> did we get to this point? And I'm
> >> > not just talking about
> >> > >>>>> Cynthia here,
> >> > >>>>> but others as well. (take Erica for
> >> > example, who no longer
> >> > >>>>> feels
> >> > >>>>> welcome here.)
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>> And lastly, I think we need to stop
> >> > this witch-hunt
> >> > >>>>> non-hacker
> >> > >>>>> hate
> >> > >>>>> mentality that we seem to be
> >> > developing here, which will
> >> > >>>>> only
> >> > >>>>> drive away
> >> > >>>>> new people who may not be familiar
> >> > with hacker culture. If
> >> > >>>>> we
> >> > >>>>> try to
> >> > >>>>> make an effort to become friends with
> >> > them, then we can
> >> > >>>>> encourage
> >> > >>>>> newcomers to contribute and learn to
> >> > become hackers by
> >> > >>>>> involving them
> >> > >>>>> with our projects. Instead of
> >> > rejecting them, we should be
> >> > >>>>> trying to
> >> > >>>>> encourage them to become productive
> >> > participants in our
> >> > >>>>> community.
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>> -Carl
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > >>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>>
> >> >
> >> > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >> > >>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >> > >>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >> > >>>>>
> >> >
> >> > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>> --
> >> > >>>>> Everything should be made as simple as possible,
> >> > but no simpler -
> >> > >>>>> Albert
> >> > >>>>> Einstein
> >> > >>>>> Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication -
> >> > Leonardo Da Vinci
> >> > >>>>> Perfection is reached not when there is nothing
> >> > left to add, but when
> >> > >>>>> there is nothing left to take away - Antoine de
> >> > Saint Exup?ry
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>> Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> --
> >> > >>> Everything should be made as simple as possible,
> >> > but no simpler - Albert
> >> > >>> Einstein
> >> > >>> Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication -
> >> > Leonardo Da Vinci
> >> > >>> Perfection is reached not when there is nothing
> >> > left to add, but when
> >> > >>> there
> >> > >>> is nothing left to take away - Antoine de Saint
> >> > Exup?ry
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> _______________________________________________
> >> > >>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >> > >>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >> > >>>
> >> >
> >> > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >> > >>>
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no
> >> > simpler - Albert Einstein
> >> > Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo Da Vinci
> >> >
> >> > Perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add,
> >> > but when there is nothing left to take away - Antoine de Saint
> >> > Exupéry
> >> >
> >> > Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler -
> >> > Albert Einstein
> >> > Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo Da Vinci
> >> > Perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when
> >> > there is nothing left to take away - Antoine de Saint Exupéry
> >> > Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >> > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >> > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler - Albert
> > Einstein
> > Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo Da Vinci
> > Perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when there
> > is nothing left to take away - Antoine de Saint Exupéry
> > Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
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