[Noisebridge-discuss] Benevolent Sexism

Sat Apr 6 21:11:25 UTC 2013

it is very telling to me when people step in to help me because I'm
disabled or they offer help, but when I refuse the help, they get *angry*.
Often I can see their anger ready, even before I refuse,  like they expect
me to refuse it and are already gearing up to lash out.  It is about them
and their feelings.

(In fact what is usually happening is a person opens a door "for me" while
they stand right exactly in my way. I am required to be grateful and
gracious and gender does play into that as well as disability. )

If someone really wanted to be helpful they would not be pre-loaded with
resentment, and they would listen when the object of their "help" says no I
don't want any help thanks.

So, is it that you want to offer help, or is it that you want to be **the
sort of person who helps ---  and gets thanked**. If it is about you, you
have to tamp it down, basic principle of respect and human decency here.

I certainly wish that it were not so complex.  I very much like it when
people are helpful, and I also like to be helpful to others.  Usually that
includes communicating and listening.

Link I hear you on your intentions being good but your actions exist in a
social context, right?

- liz

On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 1:55 PM, Mitchel McAllister <xonimmortal at yahoo.com>wrote:

> Yeah, the day I stop offering to help is the day they shove me down the
> conveyor belt into the crematorium.
>
> Maybe I'm weird, but when someone offers to help, I take it as a sign that
> they care.
>
>
> - Reverend Mik McAllister
> ------------------------------
> "You can see the summit but you can't reach it
> Its the last piece of the puzzle but you just can't make it fit
> Doctor says you're cured but you still feel the pain
> Aspirations in the clouds but your hopes go down the drain"
>  - Howard Jones, "No One Is To Blame"
> ------------------------------
> Purveyor of Subversive Fiction
> http://www.prismandink.com
> http://www.lunatextpublications.com
>
> --- On *Sat, 4/6/13, ryan rawson <ryanobjc at gmail.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: ryan rawson <ryanobjc at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] Benevolent Sexism
> To: "noisebridge-discuss at lists noisebridge. net" <
> noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>
> Date: Saturday, April 6, 2013, 12:55 PM
>
>
> As a Canadian, I have been preprogrammed with politeness which is why I
> don't:
>
> - go out of my way to help you with the door
> - carry stuff for you without being asked
> - try to solve your problems for you without being asked
> - any action that could be interpreted as sexism, ableism, ageism, etc
>
> Which is more rude, not helping that person in a wheelchair or being
> presumptuous and assuming they need help?
>
> I have chosen the latter. I hope you will as well.
>
> In polite non-rudeness,
> ryan
>
>
>
> On Apr 6, 2013, at 12:35 PM, Snail <snailtsunami at gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=snailtsunami@gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> I would like to say that I'm sorry that I don't want your help putting my
> bike on the bike rack, but I'm not really sorry.
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 12:32 PM, LinkReincarnate <
> linkreincarnate at gmail.com <http://mc/compose?to=linkreincarnate@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> First of all You are making a lot of assumptions here. And secondly you
> are ascribing the actions of other men to me.
>
> 1 I never took anything out of your hand or stepped "In your way" as you
> put it.  I was standing to the side of the bike and putting my hand under
> the wheel to get it unstuck.  I didn't even get near your personal space.
> 2 I never offered (or would have offered) a lecture about how to remove
> the bike from the rack or comments that you are doing it wrong.
> 3 You dont know what those men think anymore than I do
>
> Fact of the matter is that your sex had no bearing whatsoever on my
> actions  but you automatically assumed that was why I was helping. You even
> assumed that after I explicitly stated that was not the case. That type of
> attitude is divisive and counterproductive.
>  On Apr 6, 2013 12:12 PM, "Snail" <snailtsunami at gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=snailtsunami@gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> You misspelled my name :P
>
> People -constantly- try to help me with my bike on the rack at Noisebridge
> when I don't manage to hike it up in one swoop. They -always- try to
> explain to me how I'm doing it wrong. They -always- think I don't
> understand the problem or that I can't do it myself. It's always a man who
> does this.
>
> It would be annoying even if I were a man, to be doing a simple task and
> have someone male or female --jump in my way and literally try to take it
> out of my hands while I'm working on it--.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 12:01 PM, LinkReincarnate <
> linkreincarnate at gmail.com <http://mc/compose?to=linkreincarnate@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> Benevolent Sexism exists.  I am not here to argue that is does not.  I
> will point out that there is a lot of behavior that overlaps with
> Benevolent Sexist behaviors.  For example I was in the space and  snell was
> trying to get her bike off of the rack.  From my angle I could see that the
> tire was still stuck on the hook so I tried to lift the tire off of the
> hook.  Snell didn't like this and told me to stop. I did.  The only reason
> I could see for her not wanting my help was because I was a man, she was a
> woman, and heavy lifting was involved.   The problem is that I was not
> helping her out of a sense that "she's just a frail woman"  I was helping
> her because I saw what was causing her problems.  (And she appeared to be
> at an angle that obscured the problem) Had she been a man I would have
> still helped remove the bike from the rack.    So while benevolent sexism
> exists lets not go overboard in reacting to perceived benevolent sexism.
> There a lots and lots of prosocial behaviors that overlap with benevolent
> sexism and without knowing the other persons thoughts and motivation for
> initiating an act you cannot tell one from the other.  In other words give
> people the benefit of the doubt.  If you see some behavior that you think
> is benevolently sexist rather than scowl at the person for it, check
> yourself.  Is there a possibility that this person's actions were not in
> fact motivated by my sex?  Is there a possibility that by being so
> hypervigilant for sexism that I am finding false positives?
>
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> ............. _ at y
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-- 

.  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
Liz Henry
lhenry at mozilla.com
lizhenry at gmail.com
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