[Noisebridge-discuss] The door situation is not working.

[Danny O'Brien]

Sorry, I should have been clearer - you don't *have* to attend these
events! There are many ways to get keys and codes, and there will always
be! I will send out codes to donors soon...

Right now both how to get these things (and give money) is obscure, I am
looking for providing one more guided way to do it, on top of all the other
existing semi-arcane ways.

D.

D.
On Apr 9, 2013 5:34 PM, "Kellan Jacobs" <kellan at grokbsd.com> wrote:

> Hey Everyone,
>
> I have a few thoughts on this. First I should state that I am one of those
> people who donated during the pledge drive and I have been teaching the
> Python class at NB since the beginning. First while I like what your trying
> to do Danny with having the NB101 sessions. While I love the idea of the
> class I would take issue with this being used as a litmus test to give
> people access to the building.
>
> In my own case I have been teaching at NB and contributing to the
> community for quite some time now. I feel I have put in my time helping
> make noisebridge a better place. Being forced to attend a 5 week class just
> so I can contribute to my community after having done so for so long is
> asking a little much.
>
> Secondly in your fundraising email you stated that any donation of $10 or
> more would award you with a key to NB. While I donated out of NB need, I am
> sure there are many that made the decision because of this promise. To back
> out on your promise now after you received the funds from us is not only
> unfair but bait and switch. Maybe this class could be offered going forward.
>
> Third - I would like to comment on the general idea of the door code. I
> think the idea of giving door codes to paying members of the community is
> general a good idea. We can simply deactivate their code when they choose
> to stop paying membership.
>
> Lastly - As one of the noisebridge instructors I have had times when the
> door is broken or no one will answer it. I have had to call one of my
> students and have them come and let me into the space so I could teach our
> class. This is simply not ok. There needs to be a some trusted people who
> have keys to NB.
>
> Moving forward I think NB Should honor the requests door codes for those
> who contributed. It is the right thing to do, but I think having a better
> policy going forward would be perfectly ok.
>
> Lastly in picking this process I want to tell you the reason it took me so
> long to financially support noisebridge. The process is simply too
> difficult. I have often looked at the membership page and thought about
> becoming a full dues paying member. But the process is way too hard. I can
> access the space without contributing but to contribute I have to jump
> through a bunch of hoops. I am currently paying the 80 membership fee, but
> I don't know if I can find two people who are actual members to sponsor me.
> Everyone I have asked are not actual paying members. The reason I bring
> this up is that when you are making this new door code/key policy please
> remember my reasons for not contributing and consider it when making the
> new policy. Please make one that is not too much work. We want to be a
> welcoming and open place and making too many rules in an anarchy to keep
> people out is just not the way to build a community.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kellan Jacobs
>
> On 9 Apr 2013, at 15:53, Danny O'Brien wrote:
>
>  This is exactly what I wanted, including the bit at the end where you tell
>> me off for envisaging some sort of mad rulemaking process.
>>
>> I am personally a bit sceptical about the doorcode-as-door-opener thing
>> working, and still dumb on the NOISEBRIDGE PEOPLE bit, but I the bit I can
>> help with is getting out more codes to donors (so there's more people who
>> can both come in and let people in easily), and some sort of cultural
>> acculturation thing.
>>
>> (Buried in this thread so as to not get people's hopes up too much)
>>
>> I am going to (haphazardly) start organizing the long mooted Noisebridge
>> 101 session on Mondays at 6.00 (when it's not technoactivism mondays). I'm
>> travelling slightly more than usual in the next few weeks, so it will
>> really be extra haphazard for a bit, but I will try to get other people to
>> host while I am away.
>>
>> People attending 5 sessions will get a door code, a wiki account, a shell
>> account, a PGP key signed by their fellow Noisebridigans, and a stamp in
>> their hackerspace passport showing that they are a Noisebridge Most
>> Excellency.
>>
>> Things you will learn will be:
>>
>> A Brief History of Techno-Anarchy: Free Culture, Hacker Culture, and
>> Noisebridge Culture
>> Noisebridge University -- Which Classes And Meetups Are For You?
>> You Are So Cypherpunk -- Basic Digital Security at Noisebridge and the
>> World
>> How to use the Wiki, and Other Eldritch Virtual Arts
>> Creepus Expelliarmus! Role-playing Awkward Noisebridge Situations
>> Discordianism, Consenso, and Tales of High Drama: Noisebridge Folk
>> Mythology
>> Safety Third! Basic safety and Third Aid
>> Ask And Tell: The Dork's Guide To Excellent Social Interaction
>> Rollercoaster Hardware Tour: The Lasercutter, Vinyl Cutter, and Other
>> Awesomesss
>> Using and Contributing to Free Software: Linux, Mozilla, Plan 9, and
>> Noisebridge's Pony
>>
>> What do people think?
>> any other suggestions?
>>
>> d.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> d.
>>
>>
>> d.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 2:39 AM, Jake <jake at spaz.org> wrote:
>>
>>  On Sat, 6 Apr 2013, Danny O'Brien wrote:
>>>
>>>  Yeah, I think that the DOOR button is actually broken or *something*,
>>>> and that's what's annoying people right now.
>>>> Jake you know the door system better than anyone at this point -- is
>>>> there something that could be (sporadically or not) preventing the DOOR
>>>> button from working?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I am going to assume someone disabled it.  They should have made an
>>> announcement or something on the list.  I made announcements several
>>> times
>>> that i was going to do it and was met with approval, but i never got
>>> around
>>> to it.  I think it's a good idea and we should get used to it.
>>>
>>>
>>> There seems to be a bunch of things like timers hanging off the door
>>>
>>>> system downstairs. Could they be causing problems?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> the stuff downstairs has nothing to do with the door button.  There is a
>>> conventional 24-hour light timer for the lights that are supposed to
>>> illuminate people outside the gate at night (so we can see them on the
>>> camera) and a 12v power adaptor for the camera.  There is also a 12v
>>> adaptor that goes nowhere, for the hard drive that used to be there and
>>> is
>>> gone now.  The DOOR button wiring and buzzer wiring is all put away like
>>> it
>>> was before Noisebridge arrived.
>>>
>>>
>>> Is there anyway we can simplify what we already have without causing
>>>
>>>> problems to your future plans?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> This is not about my plans.  Noisebridge is a collective activity and we
>>> should discuss things together.  Anyone interested in working on
>>> infrastructure should communicate with other people who are interested
>>> for
>>> maximum effect.  I can try to answer any questions if they are asked of
>>> me.
>>>
>>>
>>> Asked what? I know I'm probably being stupid, but after all these months
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Here's where i initially suggested it:
>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/****pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/****<https://www.noisebridge.net/**pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/**>
>>> 2013-January/034216.html<https**://www.noisebridge.net/**
>>> pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/**2013-January/034216.html<https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2013-January/034216.html>
>>> >
>>>
>>> Here are some people who liked it:
>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/****pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/****<https://www.noisebridge.net/**pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/**>
>>> 2013-January/034217.html<https**://www.noisebridge.net/**
>>> pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/**2013-January/034217.html<https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2013-January/034217.html>
>>> >
>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/****pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/****<https://www.noisebridge.net/**pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/**>
>>> 2013-January/034221.html<https**://www.noisebridge.net/**
>>> pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/**2013-January/034221.html<https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2013-January/034221.html>
>>> >
>>>
>>> here's what YOU said about it on 17 January of this year:
>>>
>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/****pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/****<https://www.noisebridge.net/**pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/**>
>>> 2013-January/034236.html<https**://www.noisebridge.net/**
>>> pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/**2013-January/034236.html<https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2013-January/034236.html>
>>> >
>>>
>>> I also announced it at a meeting, and everyone thought it was great:
>>>
>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/****wiki/Meeting_Notes_2013_02_19<https://www.noisebridge.net/**wiki/Meeting_Notes_2013_02_19>
>>> <**https://www.noisebridge.net/**wiki/Meeting_Notes_2013_02_19<https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Meeting_Notes_2013_02_19>
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm sure not entirely sure what the plan is. I *think* it's this:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1) Door code to get in. Door code available to... who? Not sure. People
>>>> who mail doorcodes at noisebridge.net (not a real email address)? People
>>>> who come to Meeting? Probably the latter.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I have been providing codes to people who email me and tell me enough
>>> about themselves that I think they belong at noisebridge.  You can do the
>>> same.  Someone should create the email address doorcodes at noisebridge so
>>> that myself and others with the ability to add codes can share the labor
>>> of
>>> giving people codes.  I don't want a million people emailing me at my
>>> private email address for codes.  We should share the work.
>>>
>>> But yes, some infrastructure for code distribution would be appropriate.
>>>
>>> I do NOT think we should make it so that anyone with a code can just
>>> create more codes.  That is not reasonable.  We need to have a flow of
>>> codes out from the people who help make noisebridge happen, and maintain
>>> control of that flow of access.
>>>
>>>
>>> 2) Buzzer works to let people in, but you have to either go and press
>>>
>>>> the DOOR button or... type a code? Typing a code means that you've
>>>> agreed to greet people?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I don't know what you mean my buzzer.  There is a "doorbell" which makes
>>> an annoying noise.  I want to adjust it so that when it is rung, a light
>>> begins blinking inside the space (near the door) and the "doorbell" sound
>>> is muted to a lower volume when pressed, until either the electric latch
>>> opens the door or a few minutes expire.
>>>
>>> If someone uses their code to open the door for someone else I presume
>>> they will make sure the person they let in belongs at noisebridge.  At
>>> least more so than with the current setup where anyone can just push the
>>> door button.
>>>
>>>
>>> 3) Keys still work. DOOR button will still work.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> the keys have always worked and will continue to work.  The DOOR button
>>> has been disabled in favour of using codes, either at the keypad near the
>>> intercom or on ones Android app, or from a webpage on ones' PC.
>>>
>>>
>>> Does that sound right? Are there extra stages in the future?
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> the flamethrowers are being cobbled together but we need bigger solenoid
>>> valves, the ones we have keep getting stuck open.
>>>
>>>
>>> Incidentally, I asked Jake if I could give door codes to everyone who is
>>>
>>>> subscribing to Pay Noisebridge. He said yes -- I think it's a good
>>>> idea. Do
>>>> other people think that's a good idea?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I think that if people can operate email and have made a commitment to
>>> support noisebridge to the tune of $10 per month they should definitely
>>> be
>>> able to have a code.  Those people are likely capable of a reasonable
>>> conversation and are presumably willing to come to a meeting to discuss
>>> things if their behavior ever descends toward sleeping in the space or
>>> other unpleasantries.  It's a low bar i'm setting, but it's better than
>>> propping the door open, which is effectively what we've been doing.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah, but the problem is that lots of people like coming to visit us.
>>>
>>>> Almost none of them are bad people. The bad people will (and have)
>>>> worked
>>>> out ways of getting keys or codes, or whatever.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I think it's great that people come to visit.  I look forward to the day
>>> when MORE NOISEBRIDGE PEOPLE hang out at noisebridge, having a good time,
>>> rather than being repelled by its occupation by people from "the street".
>>>
>>> When MORE NOISEBRIDGE PEOPLE hang out at noisebridge, visitors ringing
>>> the
>>> doorbell will NOT be ignored but instead NOISEBRIDGE PEOPLE will rush to
>>> the camera and intercom to see who is there, and welcome them in with a
>>> proper introduction.  If whoever is there can't be bothered to say hello
>>> through the intercom, or is recognized by one of the several NOISEBRIDGE
>>> PEOPLE as a sleeper or stealer or just known to be not interesting enough
>>> to buzz in, those people will talk about it and perhaps tell the person
>>> that Noisebridge isn't here right now so they can't come in.
>>>
>>>
>>> The accepted cultural fix for this is to encourage people to greet and
>>>
>>>> check out people. But I agree that locking new people out is not a great
>>>> side-effect of trying to encourage this.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> If there is nobody at noisebridge with a code willing to let new people
>>> in, or willing to go down the steps to let people in, then it's not a
>>> good
>>> time for those people to get a good impression of noisebridge, don't you
>>> agree?  I would rather they fail to enter at 2am on a friday night and
>>> instead come back saturday afternoon when hackers are up and hanging out
>>> and eager to give them a tour.  Also if those people get on IRC someone
>>> can
>>> remotely let them in if they have a code.
>>>
>>> the fact is, our extreme open-door policy has allowed too many people
>>> whose habits and presence discourages our core membership demographic
>>> from
>>> wanting to be at noisebridge.  That is a problem worth solving.
>>>
>>>
>>> 5. There is a switch on the intercom to turn off the doorbell, if it
>>>
>>>> is annoying you and you don't feel like answering the door.  Please
>>>>> turn it back on when you leave.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I don't think anyone understands all of those switches. I don't.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> there is only one switch and it is very clearly labeled.  In english!
>>>
>>>
>>> 6. I will be adding an automatic mute for the doorbell, which turns
>>>
>>>> on a blinking light over the door and reduces the volume of the
>>>>> doorbell until someone buzzes the door or a few minutes pass.  Or
>>>>> you could do it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Why is this a good idea? This just seems to be stopping people who buzz
>>>> from coming in, based on how grumpy at inconveniences people are inside.
>>>> We should maximise the convienience for new people *and* for people
>>>> inside. Punishing either of these people to handle bad people seems to
>>>> be the wrong incentive system.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> If the people in the space are not letting people in who are outside,
>>> either because they don't have a code or because they are grumpy, or more
>>> likely because it's 2AM and they don't want anyone without a code coming
>>> in, it's better to soften the sound of the doorbell and supplement it
>>> with
>>> a gently blinking reminder light for a few minutes don't you think?
>>>
>>> Otherwise people in the space are more likely to flip the DOORBELL SILENT
>>> switch (which I did not install but i did label) and forget to flip it
>>> back.  I think gentle softening of the doorbell for a few minutes when
>>> it's
>>> clearly being ignored is a good idea.
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm pretty sure that a large number of what problems we have come from
>>>
>>>> regular or second-time visitors, not newcomers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I agree that people who abuse noisebridge have usually been there a few
>>> times before, but I also think that those people tend to NOT have a code.
>>> And part of the reason they don't have a code is because if they tried to
>>> get one, which they wouldn't bother trying, they would be refused.
>>>
>>>
>>> In short, if someone is in the building they are already our
>>>
>>>> (Noisebridge's) responsibility.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I follow the mailing list, and I still don't really understand this
>>>> either. What are the scenarios where someone gets buzzed in, but we
>>>> don't let them in through the door, thus causing them to wander the
>>>> building, terrifying the residents? Under what situations would this not
>>>> already happen, but would be fixed by any of the variants of the system
>>>> you're proposing?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I have already written too many times the same post about how bad it
>>> would
>>> be if you tried to put a lock at the top of the steps.  By the time
>>> someone
>>> ascends the steps and is standing on the other side of the door looking
>>> at
>>> you, if you refuse to let them in you're going to just piss them off
>>> until
>>> the next person coming up the stairs has to get in, and then they assault
>>> you.
>>>
>>> Or they will just learn to take up the elevator instead, further wearing
>>> away the last scraps of rust holding that thing together.  I honestly
>>> think
>>> this issue is so absurd and dead that I don't want to even address it
>>> anymore and I would almost rather see what happens if people try it.
>>>
>>> If people are not welcome inside noisebridge, the proper place to lock
>>> them out is at the sidewalk.  I am not going to argue this point anymore.
>>>
>>>
>>> I know you talk a lot about your system, Jake, but I *really* don't
>>>
>>>> understand it. Everytime you explain it to me, I just have more
>>>> questions. And I know it's annoying for you, but I don't think I'm the
>>>> only one, if only because you regularly have to write emails like this
>>>> to people who don't get what's going on.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I don't have a system.  Noisebridge has a system, with various parts.
>>> Most
>>> of it is well documented.  I know about much of it.  If you have a
>>> particular question for me just ask it instead of writing a big paragraph
>>> accusing me of being a secret holder.
>>>
>>>
>>> I would absolutely love you to just write out the whole thing, finally
>>>
>>>> and once and for all, and let everyone critique and improve the plan.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I don't know what you want me to write out.  2169 mission has a metal
>>> gate
>>> keeping people out from the street.  You can open it with a key, or a
>>> BART
>>> card, or you can activate an electrical solenoid by triggering a computer
>>> called minotaur.
>>>
>>> you can cause minotaur to open the gate either by typing a valid code
>>> into
>>> the payphone outside the gate, or into a keypad upstairs above the
>>> intercom.  Or you can put a code into the android app.  Or there's a
>>> webpage i think.  There is a DOOR button but it apparently doesn't work
>>> anymore, which I think is good.
>>>
>>> i don't understand why you're suddenly acting like noisebridge operates
>>> on
>>> a deterministic systemized rulemaking process and you're demanding that I
>>> explain to you how it works.
>>>
>>> -jake
>>>
>>>
>>>  ______________________________**_________________
>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
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>>
>
>
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