[Noisebridge-discuss] The door situation is not working.

Sean Kolk sean.kolk at gmail.com
Thu Apr 11 02:18:36 UTC 2013


hrumm... well this is unfortunate, so there's no timeline in essence, and
the whole point of a door is to allow people (old and new) in....
what about making a new system or even a manual (pull string)


On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 8:40 PM, maestro <maestro415 at gmail.com> wrote:

> # niiicely done...
>
> end comments
>
>
> message ends
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 5:34 PM, Kellan Jacobs <kellan at grokbsd.com> wrote:
>
>> Hey Everyone,
>>
>> I have a few thoughts on this. First I should state that I am one of
>> those people who donated during the pledge drive and I have been teaching
>> the Python class at NB since the beginning. First while I like what your
>> trying to do Danny with having the NB101 sessions. While I love the idea of
>> the class I would take issue with this being used as a litmus test to give
>> people access to the building.
>>
>> In my own case I have been teaching at NB and contributing to the
>> community for quite some time now. I feel I have put in my time helping
>> make noisebridge a better place. Being forced to attend a 5 week class just
>> so I can contribute to my community after having done so for so long is
>> asking a little much.
>>
>> Secondly in your fundraising email you stated that any donation of $10 or
>> more would award you with a key to NB. While I donated out of NB need, I am
>> sure there are many that made the decision because of this promise. To back
>> out on your promise now after you received the funds from us is not only
>> unfair but bait and switch. Maybe this class could be offered going forward.
>>
>> Third - I would like to comment on the general idea of the door code. I
>> think the idea of giving door codes to paying members of the community is
>> general a good idea. We can simply deactivate their code when they choose
>> to stop paying membership.
>>
>> Lastly - As one of the noisebridge instructors I have had times when the
>> door is broken or no one will answer it. I have had to call one of my
>> students and have them come and let me into the space so I could teach our
>> class. This is simply not ok. There needs to be a some trusted people who
>> have keys to NB.
>>
>> Moving forward I think NB Should honor the requests door codes for those
>> who contributed. It is the right thing to do, but I think having a better
>> policy going forward would be perfectly ok.
>>
>> Lastly in picking this process I want to tell you the reason it took me
>> so long to financially support noisebridge. The process is simply too
>> difficult. I have often looked at the membership page and thought about
>> becoming a full dues paying member. But the process is way too hard. I can
>> access the space without contributing but to contribute I have to jump
>> through a bunch of hoops. I am currently paying the 80 membership fee, but
>> I don't know if I can find two people who are actual members to sponsor me.
>> Everyone I have asked are not actual paying members. The reason I bring
>> this up is that when you are making this new door code/key policy please
>> remember my reasons for not contributing and consider it when making the
>> new policy. Please make one that is not too much work. We want to be a
>> welcoming and open place and making too many rules in an anarchy to keep
>> people out is just not the way to build a community.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Kellan Jacobs
>>
>> On 9 Apr 2013, at 15:53, Danny O'Brien wrote:
>>
>>  This is exactly what I wanted, including the bit at the end where you
>>> tell
>>> me off for envisaging some sort of mad rulemaking process.
>>>
>>> I am personally a bit sceptical about the doorcode-as-door-opener thing
>>> working, and still dumb on the NOISEBRIDGE PEOPLE bit, but I the bit I
>>> can
>>> help with is getting out more codes to donors (so there's more people who
>>> can both come in and let people in easily), and some sort of cultural
>>> acculturation thing.
>>>
>>> (Buried in this thread so as to not get people's hopes up too much)
>>>
>>> I am going to (haphazardly) start organizing the long mooted Noisebridge
>>> 101 session on Mondays at 6.00 (when it's not technoactivism mondays).
>>> I'm
>>> travelling slightly more than usual in the next few weeks, so it will
>>> really be extra haphazard for a bit, but I will try to get other people
>>> to
>>> host while I am away.
>>>
>>> People attending 5 sessions will get a door code, a wiki account, a shell
>>> account, a PGP key signed by their fellow Noisebridigans, and a stamp in
>>> their hackerspace passport showing that they are a Noisebridge Most
>>> Excellency.
>>>
>>> Things you will learn will be:
>>>
>>> A Brief History of Techno-Anarchy: Free Culture, Hacker Culture, and
>>> Noisebridge Culture
>>> Noisebridge University -- Which Classes And Meetups Are For You?
>>> You Are So Cypherpunk -- Basic Digital Security at Noisebridge and the
>>> World
>>> How to use the Wiki, and Other Eldritch Virtual Arts
>>> Creepus Expelliarmus! Role-playing Awkward Noisebridge Situations
>>> Discordianism, Consenso, and Tales of High Drama: Noisebridge Folk
>>> Mythology
>>> Safety Third! Basic safety and Third Aid
>>> Ask And Tell: The Dork's Guide To Excellent Social Interaction
>>> Rollercoaster Hardware Tour: The Lasercutter, Vinyl Cutter, and Other
>>> Awesomesss
>>> Using and Contributing to Free Software: Linux, Mozilla, Plan 9, and
>>> Noisebridge's Pony
>>>
>>> What do people think?
>>> any other suggestions?
>>>
>>> d.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> d.
>>>
>>>
>>> d.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 2:39 AM, Jake <jake at spaz.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>  On Sat, 6 Apr 2013, Danny O'Brien wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  Yeah, I think that the DOOR button is actually broken or *something*,
>>>>> and that's what's annoying people right now.
>>>>> Jake you know the door system better than anyone at this point -- is
>>>>> there something that could be (sporadically or not) preventing the DOOR
>>>>> button from working?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I am going to assume someone disabled it.  They should have made an
>>>> announcement or something on the list.  I made announcements several
>>>> times
>>>> that i was going to do it and was met with approval, but i never got
>>>> around
>>>> to it.  I think it's a good idea and we should get used to it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There seems to be a bunch of things like timers hanging off the door
>>>>
>>>>> system downstairs. Could they be causing problems?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> the stuff downstairs has nothing to do with the door button.  There is a
>>>> conventional 24-hour light timer for the lights that are supposed to
>>>> illuminate people outside the gate at night (so we can see them on the
>>>> camera) and a 12v power adaptor for the camera.  There is also a 12v
>>>> adaptor that goes nowhere, for the hard drive that used to be there and
>>>> is
>>>> gone now.  The DOOR button wiring and buzzer wiring is all put away
>>>> like it
>>>> was before Noisebridge arrived.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is there anyway we can simplify what we already have without causing
>>>>
>>>>> problems to your future plans?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> This is not about my plans.  Noisebridge is a collective activity and we
>>>> should discuss things together.  Anyone interested in working on
>>>> infrastructure should communicate with other people who are interested
>>>> for
>>>> maximum effect.  I can try to answer any questions if they are asked of
>>>> me.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Asked what? I know I'm probably being stupid, but after all these months
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Here's where i initially suggested it:
>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/****pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/****<https://www.noisebridge.net/**pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/**>
>>>> 2013-January/034216.html<https**://www.noisebridge.net/**
>>>> pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/**2013-January/034216.html<https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2013-January/034216.html>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> Here are some people who liked it:
>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/****pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/****<https://www.noisebridge.net/**pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/**>
>>>> 2013-January/034217.html<https**://www.noisebridge.net/**
>>>> pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/**2013-January/034217.html<https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2013-January/034217.html>
>>>> >
>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/****pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/****<https://www.noisebridge.net/**pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/**>
>>>> 2013-January/034221.html<https**://www.noisebridge.net/**
>>>> pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/**2013-January/034221.html<https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2013-January/034221.html>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> here's what YOU said about it on 17 January of this year:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/****pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/****<https://www.noisebridge.net/**pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/**>
>>>> 2013-January/034236.html<https**://www.noisebridge.net/**
>>>> pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/**2013-January/034236.html<https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2013-January/034236.html>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> I also announced it at a meeting, and everyone thought it was great:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/****wiki/Meeting_Notes_2013_02_19<https://www.noisebridge.net/**wiki/Meeting_Notes_2013_02_19>
>>>> <**https://www.noisebridge.net/**wiki/Meeting_Notes_2013_02_19<https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Meeting_Notes_2013_02_19>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure not entirely sure what the plan is. I *think* it's this:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) Door code to get in. Door code available to... who? Not sure. People
>>>>> who mail doorcodes at noisebridge.net (not a real email address)? People
>>>>> who come to Meeting? Probably the latter.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I have been providing codes to people who email me and tell me enough
>>>> about themselves that I think they belong at noisebridge.  You can do
>>>> the
>>>> same.  Someone should create the email address doorcodes at noisebridge so
>>>> that myself and others with the ability to add codes can share the
>>>> labor of
>>>> giving people codes.  I don't want a million people emailing me at my
>>>> private email address for codes.  We should share the work.
>>>>
>>>> But yes, some infrastructure for code distribution would be appropriate.
>>>>
>>>> I do NOT think we should make it so that anyone with a code can just
>>>> create more codes.  That is not reasonable.  We need to have a flow of
>>>> codes out from the people who help make noisebridge happen, and maintain
>>>> control of that flow of access.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2) Buzzer works to let people in, but you have to either go and press
>>>>
>>>>> the DOOR button or... type a code? Typing a code means that you've
>>>>> agreed to greet people?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I don't know what you mean my buzzer.  There is a "doorbell" which makes
>>>> an annoying noise.  I want to adjust it so that when it is rung, a light
>>>> begins blinking inside the space (near the door) and the "doorbell"
>>>> sound
>>>> is muted to a lower volume when pressed, until either the electric latch
>>>> opens the door or a few minutes expire.
>>>>
>>>> If someone uses their code to open the door for someone else I presume
>>>> they will make sure the person they let in belongs at noisebridge.  At
>>>> least more so than with the current setup where anyone can just push the
>>>> door button.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 3) Keys still work. DOOR button will still work.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> the keys have always worked and will continue to work.  The DOOR button
>>>> has been disabled in favour of using codes, either at the keypad near
>>>> the
>>>> intercom or on ones Android app, or from a webpage on ones' PC.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Does that sound right? Are there extra stages in the future?
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> the flamethrowers are being cobbled together but we need bigger solenoid
>>>> valves, the ones we have keep getting stuck open.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Incidentally, I asked Jake if I could give door codes to everyone who is
>>>>
>>>>> subscribing to Pay Noisebridge. He said yes -- I think it's a good
>>>>> idea. Do
>>>>> other people think that's a good idea?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I think that if people can operate email and have made a commitment to
>>>> support noisebridge to the tune of $10 per month they should definitely
>>>> be
>>>> able to have a code.  Those people are likely capable of a reasonable
>>>> conversation and are presumably willing to come to a meeting to discuss
>>>> things if their behavior ever descends toward sleeping in the space or
>>>> other unpleasantries.  It's a low bar i'm setting, but it's better than
>>>> propping the door open, which is effectively what we've been doing.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, but the problem is that lots of people like coming to visit us.
>>>>
>>>>> Almost none of them are bad people. The bad people will (and have)
>>>>> worked
>>>>> out ways of getting keys or codes, or whatever.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I think it's great that people come to visit.  I look forward to the day
>>>> when MORE NOISEBRIDGE PEOPLE hang out at noisebridge, having a good
>>>> time,
>>>> rather than being repelled by its occupation by people from "the
>>>> street".
>>>>
>>>> When MORE NOISEBRIDGE PEOPLE hang out at noisebridge, visitors ringing
>>>> the
>>>> doorbell will NOT be ignored but instead NOISEBRIDGE PEOPLE will rush to
>>>> the camera and intercom to see who is there, and welcome them in with a
>>>> proper introduction.  If whoever is there can't be bothered to say hello
>>>> through the intercom, or is recognized by one of the several NOISEBRIDGE
>>>> PEOPLE as a sleeper or stealer or just known to be not interesting
>>>> enough
>>>> to buzz in, those people will talk about it and perhaps tell the person
>>>> that Noisebridge isn't here right now so they can't come in.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The accepted cultural fix for this is to encourage people to greet and
>>>>
>>>>> check out people. But I agree that locking new people out is not a
>>>>> great
>>>>> side-effect of trying to encourage this.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> If there is nobody at noisebridge with a code willing to let new people
>>>> in, or willing to go down the steps to let people in, then it's not a
>>>> good
>>>> time for those people to get a good impression of noisebridge, don't you
>>>> agree?  I would rather they fail to enter at 2am on a friday night and
>>>> instead come back saturday afternoon when hackers are up and hanging out
>>>> and eager to give them a tour.  Also if those people get on IRC someone
>>>> can
>>>> remotely let them in if they have a code.
>>>>
>>>> the fact is, our extreme open-door policy has allowed too many people
>>>> whose habits and presence discourages our core membership demographic
>>>> from
>>>> wanting to be at noisebridge.  That is a problem worth solving.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 5. There is a switch on the intercom to turn off the doorbell, if it
>>>>
>>>>> is annoying you and you don't feel like answering the door.  Please
>>>>>> turn it back on when you leave.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think anyone understands all of those switches. I don't.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> there is only one switch and it is very clearly labeled.  In english!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 6. I will be adding an automatic mute for the doorbell, which turns
>>>>
>>>>> on a blinking light over the door and reduces the volume of the
>>>>>> doorbell until someone buzzes the door or a few minutes pass.  Or
>>>>>> you could do it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Why is this a good idea? This just seems to be stopping people who buzz
>>>>> from coming in, based on how grumpy at inconveniences people are
>>>>> inside.
>>>>> We should maximise the convienience for new people *and* for people
>>>>> inside. Punishing either of these people to handle bad people seems to
>>>>> be the wrong incentive system.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> If the people in the space are not letting people in who are outside,
>>>> either because they don't have a code or because they are grumpy, or
>>>> more
>>>> likely because it's 2AM and they don't want anyone without a code coming
>>>> in, it's better to soften the sound of the doorbell and supplement it
>>>> with
>>>> a gently blinking reminder light for a few minutes don't you think?
>>>>
>>>> Otherwise people in the space are more likely to flip the DOORBELL
>>>> SILENT
>>>> switch (which I did not install but i did label) and forget to flip it
>>>> back.  I think gentle softening of the doorbell for a few minutes when
>>>> it's
>>>> clearly being ignored is a good idea.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm pretty sure that a large number of what problems we have come from
>>>>
>>>>> regular or second-time visitors, not newcomers.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I agree that people who abuse noisebridge have usually been there a few
>>>> times before, but I also think that those people tend to NOT have a
>>>> code.
>>>> And part of the reason they don't have a code is because if they tried
>>>> to
>>>> get one, which they wouldn't bother trying, they would be refused.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In short, if someone is in the building they are already our
>>>>
>>>>> (Noisebridge's) responsibility.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I follow the mailing list, and I still don't really understand this
>>>>> either. What are the scenarios where someone gets buzzed in, but we
>>>>> don't let them in through the door, thus causing them to wander the
>>>>> building, terrifying the residents? Under what situations would this
>>>>> not
>>>>> already happen, but would be fixed by any of the variants of the system
>>>>> you're proposing?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I have already written too many times the same post about how bad it
>>>> would
>>>> be if you tried to put a lock at the top of the steps.  By the time
>>>> someone
>>>> ascends the steps and is standing on the other side of the door looking
>>>> at
>>>> you, if you refuse to let them in you're going to just piss them off
>>>> until
>>>> the next person coming up the stairs has to get in, and then they
>>>> assault
>>>> you.
>>>>
>>>> Or they will just learn to take up the elevator instead, further wearing
>>>> away the last scraps of rust holding that thing together.  I honestly
>>>> think
>>>> this issue is so absurd and dead that I don't want to even address it
>>>> anymore and I would almost rather see what happens if people try it.
>>>>
>>>> If people are not welcome inside noisebridge, the proper place to lock
>>>> them out is at the sidewalk.  I am not going to argue this point
>>>> anymore.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I know you talk a lot about your system, Jake, but I *really* don't
>>>>
>>>>> understand it. Everytime you explain it to me, I just have more
>>>>> questions. And I know it's annoying for you, but I don't think I'm the
>>>>> only one, if only because you regularly have to write emails like this
>>>>> to people who don't get what's going on.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I don't have a system.  Noisebridge has a system, with various parts.
>>>> Most
>>>> of it is well documented.  I know about much of it.  If you have a
>>>> particular question for me just ask it instead of writing a big
>>>> paragraph
>>>> accusing me of being a secret holder.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would absolutely love you to just write out the whole thing, finally
>>>>
>>>>> and once and for all, and let everyone critique and improve the plan.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I don't know what you want me to write out.  2169 mission has a metal
>>>> gate
>>>> keeping people out from the street.  You can open it with a key, or a
>>>> BART
>>>> card, or you can activate an electrical solenoid by triggering a
>>>> computer
>>>> called minotaur.
>>>>
>>>> you can cause minotaur to open the gate either by typing a valid code
>>>> into
>>>> the payphone outside the gate, or into a keypad upstairs above the
>>>> intercom.  Or you can put a code into the android app.  Or there's a
>>>> webpage i think.  There is a DOOR button but it apparently doesn't work
>>>> anymore, which I think is good.
>>>>
>>>> i don't understand why you're suddenly acting like noisebridge operates
>>>> on
>>>> a deterministic systemized rulemaking process and you're demanding that
>>>> I
>>>> explain to you how it works.
>>>>
>>>> -jake
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  ______________________________**_________________
>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.**noisebridge.net<Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>
>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/**mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-**discuss<https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss>
>>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
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>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *~the quieter you become, the more you are able to hear...*
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-- 
-Sean Kolk
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