[Noisebridge-discuss] Thought crimes at Noisebridge, and how can we stop them?
Charles Tang
cjtang1 at asu.edu
Thu Dec 19 19:22:11 UTC 2013
An example of an emotionally charged conflict:
It's not an consensus problem, or a thought crimes problem. It's a people
problem.
See:
https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2013-December/041270.html
On 19 December 2013 11:15, Al Sweigart <asweigart at gmail.com> wrote:
> Can you... give a number of people? Jim, this is a somewhat frustrating
> pattern with you. I'll copy and paste my part of my reply from our recent
> off-list email conversation because it fits here perfectly well: "I don't
> really know how to respond: Rumors of unspecified behavior of unspecified people
> claiming to dictate unspecified things to unspecified others is about as
> vague as you can get."
>
> Until we can start dealing with things in a concrete way, I'm just going
> to slap up a [citation needed] and move on.
>
> I'm not saying you're making this stuff up, but I need to get an accurate
> idea of who has problems, what the problems are, and how big they are. And
> I don't want to discourage you from speaking up: quite the opposite, I need
> you to tell me *more* details.
>
> -Al
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 10:42 AM, jim <jim at well.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Al,
>> Your questions are good and thank you for
>> your response.
>> I will not name names, nor will I dig up
>> info that might allow surmise, other than you
>> and me. I admire you and your seeming pure-
>> hearted tenacity. Mostly you've taken
>> initiative to boot out the sleepers: kudos!
>> Consider the ideas of associate members
>> and closing hours and a council in light of
>> the ideas of community collaboration and an
>> open venue.
>> There has been disaffection of various
>> kinds ever since the build-out was somewhat
>> done and decorations up.
>> Please take my response as food for
>> reflection, suggestions to balance the urge
>> to create policy.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 2013-12-19 at 10:10 -0800, Al Sweigart wrote:
>> > Jim, could you give some examples of which NB members left because of
>> > rule makers rather than rule breakers? And can you say which rule
>> > makers and what rules they had gripes about? (I don't mind if you name
>> > me among them.)
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 9:46 AM, jim <jim at well.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Trying to find community is a matter of bonding
>> > with others, yes? Why not come and find others who
>> > share your values and interests and, with respect
>> > to others, live and let live?
>> > One big and largely ignored fact of NB is that
>> > there are several communities, such as the morning,
>> > mid-day, evening, and late evening people as well
>> > as those that center about electronics, sewing,
>> > software, cooking, spacebridge, and other interests.
>> > It's unfortunate for some, who are harmless or
>> > who offer real benefits to some others, that the
>> > evening crowd has a much greater affect than others
>> > regarding NB governance, and one of the founding
>> > principles has been to recognize those who, for
>> > whatever reasons, do not or can not attend
>> > The Tuesday Night Meeting.
>> >
>> > You've exaggerated the bad features and skipped
>> > the good features of Noisebridge. A couple of good
>> > features are
>> > * the openness provides a great place to meet people
>> > that one otherwise would never meet.
>> > * cross-fertilization of interests and ideas among
>> > various interest groups.
>> >
>> > Those who simply "hack" and avoid the fray are
>> > affected by the decisions of those who kick up the
>> > fray: e.g. associate members and closing hours among
>> > other tho't crimes.
>> > The attempts to impose rules to govern mostly
>> > * mask individuals' behaviors (people can blind
>> > themselves to reality with the comfort that there
>> > are rules)
>> > * and, it seems to me having watched NB from its
>> > inception, like medicines' side effects, rules
>> > generally are not worth the enforcement efforts.
>> >
>> > It's frustrating to put up with the bad sides of
>> > any community, but rules usually do not address many
>> > aspects of reality that drive behavior; patience is
>> > a tough road.
>> > There have been individual, do-ocratic efforts to
>> > address theft, sleeping, drug use, and other problems
>> > that were successful and did not employ rules.
>> >
>> > Most of the people I learned to love have left.
>> > I guess that's partly a matter of natural attrition,
>> > but I know for a fact that to some degree people have
>> > abandoned NB because of the rule makers rather than
>> > the rule breakers.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, 2013-12-18 at 19:41 -0800, Madelynn Martiniere wrote:
>> > > Trying to find community is a thought crime? My bad, I
>> > didn't realize
>> > > the opinion of people who care about the future of the space
>> > were so
>> > > criminal.
>> > >
>> > > Considering this statement in your previous email:
>> > > And let's be honest, Noisebridge in the last two years (or
>> > even from the
>> > > beginning) hasn't been the best establishment to go flaunt
>> > around saying
>> > > you're a member of. It's sort of like telling all your
>> > friends you're a
>> > > paying member of the festering techno trash dump and care
>> > home for the
>> > > socially dongz, while mice and rats run around inside your
>> > sports blazer.
>> > >
>> > > Are you saying that it's not worth fixing because it's so
>> > messed up?
>> > > Because if so, then you're in no position to tell other
>> > people not to
>> > > try. If you're that sick and tired of hearing other people
>> > try to fix
>> > > a broken system, then I would suggest the alternative of
>> > just not
>> > > participating in any discussion about the space. Just hack
>> > some
>> > > things, and leave the rest of us to find productive
>> > solutions.
>> > >
>> > > Cheers,
>> > > Madelynn
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > >
>> >
>> > > > Rubin Abdi
>> > > > December 18, 2013 6:37 PM
>> > > > I'm getting sick and tired of people thinking they can fix
>> > > > Noisebridge.
>> > > > How can we put an end to this issue?
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>> > > > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>> > > >
>> >
>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Madelynn Martiniere
>> > > Community Engineer. Entrepreneur. Geek.
>> > >
>> > > LinkedIn | Twitter | Email
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>> > > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>> > >
>> >
>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>> >
>> >
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>> >
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