[Noisebridge-discuss] Fwd: sleeping in turing

Andrew Byrne andrew at pachakutech.com
Tue Jan 15 19:33:41 UTC 2013


Of course, now I am a vigilante about this... so let's just start lighting
sleepers on fire, that would alarm them sufficiently. OK, back  to ignoring
the issue due to personal conflictions about this matter...

It is nice to have comfy things to sit and read on, and it is definately
nice to have things to sit on near the books. I actually may have access to
a truck, and could be down for checking out some salvage yards or city tree
dumps for wood to make some nice benches with. If others are interested,
this seems like the time to do this. That said, I really like comfy chairs
-dru


On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 3:15 AM, jim <jim at well.com> wrote:

>
>
>     Might be good to meet in the space around 6 or 7 AM.
>     I'm opposed to people sleeping in the space repeatedly
> by habit.
>     I'd love to throw all couches out.
>
>
> On Tue, 2013-01-15 at 10:51 -0800, Ronald Cotoni wrote:
> > I am with Hep here.  Hep knows her photography and are we really
> > talking about people living at noisebridge?  There have been at least
> > 5 threads that I know of on this topic and still 0 actual solutions.
> >  We are so smart, we are stupid.  Does anyone want to actually fix
> > this problem?  I am up for creative solutions to this social/technical
> > issue.   I would be willing to meet every day until we have a solid
> > solution to this and I think noisebridge needs to do this (part of
> > pulling it's collective head from it's collective butt).  I do mean
> > EVERY day with people who want to actually solve this problem.
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 10:02 AM, hep <dis at gruntle.org> wrote:
> >         I am a professional photographer and do actually know CA law.
> >         Unless the photographer is in your face and actually has
> >         touched you (the assault and battery portion of the
> >         interaction) you don't actually have a leg to stand on.
> >         Someone photographing you from across a room is not at all the
> >         same as a paparazzi in your face after having followed you for
> >         miles, pushing up on you. And furthermore, often those
> >         paparazzi are in fact awarded damages and successfully push
> >         assault charges against those people who break their cameras
> >         (I know and occasionally work with a lot of people who
> >         otherwise work as paparazzi and other types of investigative
> >         journalists who push the boundaries of public photography vs.
> >         stalking.) So your "some tv news cameramen i talked to" advice
> >         goes directly in the face of the professional advice and
> >         knowledge I have learned from our legal team and other
> >         professional colleagues.
> >
> >         Secondly: noisebridge isn't at all like peet's, which is
> >         private property that provides a for money service to the
> >         public. Peet's is not actually public space, because you are
> >         required to purchase goods or services in order to use their
> >         space. This means you need permission to photograph anything
> >         that is not in public view on the premises (ie i can still
> >         stand outside on the sidewalk and shoot through the windows
> >         all I want, but if I want to photograph inside I would need
> >         permission.) Noisebridge is much more like the lobby of a
> >         corporate building, a private property which is held as a
> >         private lease, but is open as public access space without fees
> >         or money changing hands. These are two very different entities
> >         legally speaking as far as photography goes. The way the judge
> >         will view it is if the property is open to the public at large
> >         without needing a payment of a sorts (either via goods or
> >         services) to access it, if this is true, then it is considered
> >         public space (regardless of it's other status as using a
> >         privately held lease) and photography is permitted in there.
> >         This is why journalists are allowed to follow people into
> >         office building lobbies, but then cannot follow into the
> >         offices of people (because those offices are not open to the
> >         public, and therefore are not public space. tho they could
> >         shoot through any open doors or windows) The corollary to this
> >         of course being that if you don't like someone photographing,
> >         if you have the authority in that space you could always ask
> >         them to leave, however you cannot actually stop them from
> >         taking pictures or demand they remove/delete the images from
> >         their drives. This has held up in court repeatedly, including
> >         repeatedly in SF down at 555 California (where a lot of
> >         politicians and other famous sf people have offices) in their
> >         public square/lobby area. The only thing you aren't in fact
> >         allowed to photograph in public are things which violate other
> >         kinds of privacy, for instance someone's pin number. If
> >         someone was able to prove that you photoed or videoed their
> >         pin number that is considered a breach of privacy regardless
> >         of whether it happened in public (and this is how those people
> >         who lay out pinhole cameras over ATMs get tagged.) The same
> >         for trying to photo someone's weiner in a public restroom
> >         (topical reference.)
> >
> >         Now, all of this is hypothetical at best, but I am pretty
> >         solid on the viewpoint that if i were to photograph you at
> >         Noisebridge, and you broke my camera, the judge would
> >         absolutely award me for damages and knock you for destruction
> >         of property, and potentially assault if you actually grabbed
> >         it out of my hands.
> >
> >
> >         On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 8:03 PM, Gopiballava Flaherty
> >         <gopiballava at gmail.com> wrote:
> >                 Yes, there are situations in which a person with a
> >                 camera could be a legitimate threat. But your initial
> >                 description was not one of those situations. The
> >                 scenario you described could easily occur without the
> >                 photographer even knowing they were doing something
> >                 wrong. Your invitation said it was ok to vandalize
> >                 *anybody's* equipment for taking a photo. How many
> >                 visitors to NB know about the no photo rule?
> >
> >
> >                 Your claim about the right to stand your ground is in
> >                 conflict with what I learned in class in PA, but it is
> >                 possible that CA law is different. In most cases when
> >                 you are not in your house you have a duty to retreat
> >                 if you can do so safely. The duty to retreat is
> >                 normally conditional on knowing that you can do so in
> >                 complete safety to yourself and others. That's a high
> >                 standard and probably one that can't be met when
> >                 you're in a room with somebody at NB. Retreat in a
> >                 small room makes no sense.
> >
> >
> >                 Celebrities do get in trouble for destroying cameras:
> >
> >
> >
> http://www.epagini.com/2010/05/sean-penn-got-3-years-probation/
> >
> >
> >
> http://cdn.mediatakeout.com/26565/breaking-news-kanye-arrested-for-fighting-with-paparazzi.html
> >
> >                 What you also probably don't hear about is when a
> >                 celebrity smashes a camera, and then their publicist
> >                 calls the photographer and offers to take them on a
> >                 camera shopping trip in exchange for no police report.
> >                 I don't actually know how often that happens but it
> >                 seems like a likely scenario.
> >
> >
> >
> >                 Thanks,
> >
> >
> >                 gopi at iPhone
> >
> >
> >
> >                 On Jan 14, 2013, at 18:10, maestro
> >                 <maestro415 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >                 > *an excellent and
> >                 > non-antagonistic/non-judgemental/non-drama response
> >                 > with references...
> >                 >
> >                 > *a caveat to your info is that "when accosted by a
> >                 > device of any nature in someone's hand(s) or on
> >                 > their person it can be considered a weapon and/or
> >                 > mode of threatening the security of your person" and
> >                 > you have the un-alienable right to stand your
> >                 > ground...
> >                 >
> >                 > *a really good example of this is the tv 'news'
> >                 > cameramen that have told me honestly and it has been
> >                 > backed up by a couple judges that if they get right
> >                 > in someone's face with their camera the person can
> >                 > totally throw the camera down without prejudice or
> >                 > liability...
> >                 > but of course they rely on most not knowing this and
> >                 > sometimes consider the shot(s) worth the damage
> >                 > since they don't pay for it anyway...
> >                 >
> >                 > *in other cases judges rarely rule against someone
> >                 > being stalked by individuals or paparazzi and there
> >                 > have been many cases of paparazzi's gear being
> >                 > 'disabled' at no liability to the defendant(s)...
> >                 >
> >                 > *yes, there is a 'grey area' about noisebridge as
> >                 > the public is welcome to come in BUT it is a
> >                 > privately held lease with a core private membership
> >                 > on private property sooo...
> >                 > it makes it 'technically' not public (like peet's
> >                 > coffee et.al)
> >                 > think of it like a park on private property...
> >                 >
> >                 > at the end of the day,
> >                 > beings secretly photographing people and seeking to
> >                 > create name lists is the total polar opposite of
> >                 > what NB is all about and makes A LOT of beings that
> >                 > would normally come by and do/share/create kewl
> >                 > things...NOT.
> >                 > but it does reflect the agenda of what's going on
> >                 > across OUR country and the desire to manifest a
> >                 > stazi-like environment...
> >                 >
> >                 > in the past there were fucked up trolls doing/trying
> >                 > to do  facial recognition(leo'esque) on beings at
> >                 > the space...
> >                 >
> >                 > and someone invited a federal agent(that showed
> >                 > their badge) in at the bottom door(with no warrant),
> >                 > gave them a tour, offered them cookies and coffee,
> >                 > and...
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 > message ends
> >                 >
> ___________________________________________________________________________________________
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 > On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 1:17 PM, hep
> >                 > <dis at gruntle.org> wrote:
> >                 >         actually they can sue you. your right is
> >                 >         that they cannot monetize your image, ie
> >                 >         sell it, without having you release your
> >                 >         rights to not have your image sold. but
> >                 >         anyone can take a picture of you in any
> >                 >         public place (noisebridge would count as
> >                 >         public since it is specifically open to the
> >                 >         public at large, and for the public use. it
> >                 >         falls in the same category as malls), and
> >                 >         you do not in fact have the right to break
> >                 >         their camera or demand they delete the
> >                 >         photos. if you do break their camera they
> >                 >         can in fact have you arrested for theft, and
> >                 >         can in fact sue you to replace the camera
> >                 >         and any other damages that may occur. if
> >                 >         they are a professional photographer and had
> >                 >         images on it they obtained rights to and
> >                 >         planned on monetizing they can sue you for
> >                 >         the lost value as well.
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >         From Andrew Kantor's excellent photographers
> >                 >         rights essay:
> >                 >
> >                 >         "Further, they cannot demand your camera or
> >                 >         your digital media or film. Well, they can
> >                 >         demand it, but you are under no obligation
> >                 >         to give it to them. In fact, only an officer
> >                 >         of the law or court can take it from you,
> >                 >         and then only with a court order. And if
> >                 >         they try or threaten you? They can be
> >                 >         charged with theft or coercion, and you may
> >                 >         even have civil recourse. Cool. (For
> >                 >         details, see "The Photographer's Right.")
> >                 >
> >                 >         It gets better.
> >                 >
> >                 >         You can take photos any place that's open to
> >                 >         the public, whether or not it's private
> >                 >         property. A mall, for example, is open to
> >                 >         the public. So are most office buildings (at
> >                 >         least the lobbies). You don't need
> >                 >         permission; if you have permission to enter,
> >                 >         you have permission to shoot."
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >
> http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/andrewkantor/2005-12-29-camera-laws_x.htm
> >                 >
> >                 >
> http://content.photojojo.com/tips/legal-rights-of-photographers/
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >         On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 12:55 PM, maestro
> >                 >         <maestro415 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >                 ---------- Forwarded message
> >                 >                 ----------
> >                 >                 From: maestro <maestro415 at gmail.com>
> >                 >                 Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 12:55 PM
> >                 >                 Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss]
> >                 >                 sleeping in turing
> >                 >                 To: Jake <jake at spaz.org>
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >                 bullshit.
> >                 >                 although NB doesn't have 'rules' per
> >                 >                 literal definition,
> >                 >                 it has ALWAYS been policy NOT to
> >                 >                 take photos in the space without
> >                 >                 asking and/or announcing you are
> >                 >                 doing it and what for, or someone
> >                 >                 else has put something on the list
> >                 >                 that people are coming to space and
> >                 >                 will be filming/photos like mitch
> >                 >                 does when he sends folks on by the
> >                 >                 space....
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >                 this is most UNEXCELLENT and fucking
> >                 >                 lame and not the first time this
> >                 >                 person has suggested doing it...
> >                 >                 still haven't found out what 'kind'
> >                 >                 of badge he has or reports to, if
> >                 >                 anyone knows please make it
> >                 >                 public...
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >                 i invite anyone and everyone who
> >                 >                 catches anyone taking pictures of
> >                 >                 people WITHOUT their knowledge and
> >                 >                 permission to grab the camera, take
> >                 >                 it straight to the dirty room or
> >                 >                 wherever, and get to pounding it
> >                 >                 into e-waste making sure you have
> >                 >                 destroyed the disc and/or film...
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >                 and this is your right by the way
> >                 >                 and NO, they can't sue you so no
> >                 >                 worries (great hacking too)...
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >                 sleepers can be dealt with in many
> >                 >                 other ways...
> >                 >                 fascinating that beings would need
> >                 >                 to be told how but here are just a
> >                 >                 few starters *
> >                 >                 *1st time merely quietly wake them
> >                 >                 and calmly say IN A COOL WAY "hey,
> >                 >                 just letting you know the house
> >                 >                 doesn't want people sleeping and i'm
> >                 >                 just letting you know before others
> >                 >                 come and snap/yell at you..."
> >                 >                 *walk by clapping loudly, clearing
> >                 >                 your bronchial cavity, or singing
> >                 >                 *move one of the portable audio
> >                 >                 devices next to them and put on the
> >                 >                 spanish or chinese station for 3
> >                 >                 minutes (if they haven't risen start
> >                 >                 dropping books)
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >                 been said way too many times already
> >                 >                 but getting rid of ALL the couches
> >                 >                 WILL deplete number of sleepers,
> >                 >                 bedbugs, stank, and filth
> >                 >                 immediately...
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >                 message ends
> >                 >
> _______________________________________________________________________________________
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >                 On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 11:19 AM,
> >                 >                 Jake <jake at spaz.org> wrote:
> >                 >                         Jim (and everyone else who
> >                 >                         finds sleepers)
> >                 >
> >                 >                         Next time, please get
> >                 >                         pictures and/or names!
> >                 >
> >                 >                         it's not that hard, and it
> >                 >                         will help us deal with
> >                 >                         repeat offenders.
> >                 >
> >                 >                         keep in mind that squatters
> >                 >                         are taking advantage of the
> >                 >                         fact that we are not good at
> >                 >                         tracking them because many
> >                 >                         hackers prefer to avoid
> >                 >                         awkward social interactions.
> >                 >
> >                 >                         Do it!  Ask them their name,
> >                 >                         so you can post it to this
> >                 >                         list.  If they are asleep or
> >                 >                         pretending to be asleep (a
> >                 >                         common tactic) take a photo,
> >                 >                         and post it to this list.
> >                 >
> >                 >                         -jake
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >                         Jim wrote:
> >                 >                             I got here around 9:15
> >                 >                         AM and went into
> >                 >                         the Turing classroom. The
> >                 >                         door was closed
> >                 >                         and the air smelled like
> >                 >                         fice-hour farts.
> >                 >                             Two guys seems asleep,
> >                 >                         one had just left
> >                 >                         the room, one was sitting in
> >                 >                         a heap on the
> >                 >                         floor and one was in a
> >                 >                         chair, kind of dazed.
> >                 >
> >                 >                             Not excellent in my
> >                 >                         view.
> >                 >                         jim the snitch
> >                 >
> >                 >
> _______________________________________________
> >                 >                         Noisebridge-discuss mailing
> >                 >                         list
> >                 >
> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >                 >
> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >
> _______________________________________________
> >                 >                 Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >                 >
> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >                 >
> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 >         --
> >                 >         hep
> >                 >         hepic photography || www.hepic.net
> >                 >             dis at gruntle.org || 415 867 9472
> >                 >
> >                 >
> >                 > _______________________________________________
> >                 > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >                 > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >                 >
> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >                 >
> >
> >                 _______________________________________________
> >                 Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >                 Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >
> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >         --
> >         hep
> >         hepic photography || www.hepic.net
> >             dis at gruntle.org || 415 867 9472
> >
> >         _______________________________________________
> >         Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >         Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >         https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ronald Cotoni
> > Systems Engineer
> > _______________________________________________
> > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>



-- 
-- --
-- -- -- --
-- -- -- -- -- --
@AndruByrne
CEO, Pachakutech
www.pachakutech.com/intro.html
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