[Noisebridge-discuss] happy feminist film night: Hayao Miyazaki?

[rachel lyra hospodar]

Adrian replied privately:

>I completely agree with your "are you willing to modify your position"
outlook. But does this also mean you're willing to modify your own ideals,
morals and opinions?

(I am re-forwarding to list, in the hopes of keeping public discussion
public. I'm not in this discussion to get feminist troll jollies, or to do
pro bono one-on-one lessons in feminist thought. I'm seeking to have public
culturehacking discussions about issues that are clearly important to many
members of the NB community.)

Your question seems to me to presuppose a parity in this discussion - ie,
that in a discussion about feminism, the opinions of all should be weighted
equally.

I believe that in a discussion about feminist goals, women are the de facto
experts. I do not expect blind abasement to my opinions in all matters. I
do expect that my opinion of [*what women ought to do* in order to try and
be less oppressed] is more valid than that of a not-woman.

I further often hear similar sentiments to this email that to me, overall,
sound like 'why do *you* get to have prime number one opinion?! Unfair!'
Which seems to indicate a belief that I would hold (or have held) the same
stance WRT some other discussion that is not supposed to be centered on
what I think and feel. I change my beliefs all the time, based on evidence
I am constantly gathering from the world around me. I listen really well to
the opinions of others, actually. After all, part of how they train you to
be a woman in this society is to make sure you listen more and speak less.
We are experts at hearing how your opinions center in your self. We are the
half of society that is trained to center in others, to listen, support,
and learn passively. We must undo that training and if you want to help
then google around 'how to be a good ally'. I promise it starts and ends
with listening, and has f*ckall to do with you worrying about my personal
growth. Worry about your own.

I only started learning the language of feminism recently, to describe
patterns I have empirically observed in a way that is more systematized,
less easily dismissed. Ultimately, feminism is centered on women, what they
think, feel, and want. It's not about anything except the collaborative
opinion of a certain group of people.

Which seems to be the main sticking point for lots of folks.

I invite you to consider that this novel feeling is in fact a reversal of
an invisible, insidious, and very strong status quo.

R.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Adrian Chadd" <adrian.chadd at gmail.com>
Date: Jul 29, 2013 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] happy feminist film night: Hayao
Miyazaki?
To: "rachel lyra hospodar" <rachelyra at gmail.com>

(Privately, as I don't want to incite more rioting/trolling..)

On 29 July 2013 14:17, rachel lyra hospodar <rachelyra at gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for sane reply!

As an observer, I'm glad to see a pair of sane replies.

> I agree with you, now, about your overt wording and language; especially
in
> the quoted passage. perhaps it was the initial tone-setting that did it to
> me, or my own prejudice against you.
>
> I will say that in my ideal world, your opinion would come surrounded with
> more questions from you about the opinions of others, indicating an
openness
> to new ideas & the modification of your position.  Also, I find that any
> arguments about how someone was treated are not neutral, and that
generally
> that is where the whole thing starts to happen where online arguments skew
> out of proportion. I find that an intersectional analysis is incredibly
> helpful in finding where, and how, discussions like this go awry.

This begs a question, if only to see what it's like from your perspective.

I completely agree with your "are you willing to modify your position"
outlook. But does this also mean you're willing to modify your own
ideals, morals and opinions? Which ones would you hold steadfastly to,
even in the face of evidence?

I tend to get some very uncomfortable silences when I ask people this
as they tend to assume I'm trolling rather than seeing if they're
truly as open to adapting to a changing world and accepting their own
shortcomings as they expect others to be. Hence, I'm curious.

Thanks!

-adrian
On Jul 29, 2013 2:29 PM, "Adrian Chadd" <adrian.chadd at gmail.com> wrote:

> (Privately, as I don't want to incite more rioting/trolling..)
>
> On 29 July 2013 14:17, rachel lyra hospodar <rachelyra at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Thanks for sane reply!
>
> As an observer, I'm glad to see a pair of sane replies.
>
> > I agree with you, now, about your overt wording and language; especially
> in
> > the quoted passage. perhaps it was the initial tone-setting that did it
> to
> > me, or my own prejudice against you.
> >
> > I will say that in my ideal world, your opinion would come surrounded
> with
> > more questions from you about the opinions of others, indicating an
> openness
> > to new ideas & the modification of your position.  Also, I find that any
> > arguments about how someone was treated are not neutral, and that
> generally
> > that is where the whole thing starts to happen where online arguments
> skew
> > out of proportion. I find that an intersectional analysis is incredibly
> > helpful in finding where, and how, discussions like this go awry.
>
> This begs a question, if only to see what it's like from your perspective.
>
> I completely agree with your "are you willing to modify your position"
> outlook. But does this also mean you're willing to modify your own
> ideals, morals and opinions? Which ones would you hold steadfastly to,
> even in the face of evidence?
>
> I tend to get some very uncomfortable silences when I ask people this
> as they tend to assume I'm trolling rather than seeing if they're
> truly as open to adapting to a changing world and accepting their own
> shortcomings as they expect others to be. Hence, I'm curious.
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> -adrian
>
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