[Noisebridge-discuss] It has come to my attention that...

Wed Jun 19 19:32:59 UTC 2013

"Radical scene"
"Extralegal venue" = us determining guilt, innocence or mediation so we can
ask people to leave or not.

And yes, let's lock out people who are creepy and predatory.

Let's also recognize trolls.

-dru
On Jun 19, 2013 10:40 AM, "rachel lyra hospodar" <rachelyra at gmail.com>
wrote:

> "In the scene"?
> "An extralegal venue"?
>
> Maybe this is another case of noisbridge not actually being designed for
> everything. It's not a home, and it's certainly not a 'play space'.
>
> While Noisebridge is not kink-un-friendly, as we try to be welcoming to
> all, it is not part of sex-play community, and is in fact on the other end
> of the spectrum wrt to safety. Your scene is at The Citadel, bro, not here.
> Come here to solder your vibrator, not use it.
>
> The space is also not a 'venue' of any kind, legal or non. It's a
> community space, and one that has long been welcoming to many flavors of
> social awkwardness, as long as the awkward comes with a core of respect,
> wrapped around a desire to fucking hack.
>
> Not creepy predatory bullshit, though. Nope. Don't need that, thanks.
>
> R.
> On Jun 18, 2013 12:48 PM, "Andrew Byrne" <andrew at pachakutech.com> wrote:
>
>> I'd also like to take this moment to examine this: my not responding in a
>> manner suitably respectful to the plaintiff is "the problem people are
>> pointing out". Because I seem to remember this was all about me forcing
>> non-consensual sexual contact, not writing emails that dismiss people's
>> feelings.
>>
>> The take home here, for those still watching, is that there are no
>> reports of me touching anyone when not asked to and that the one time I was
>> asked to stop, I did--though confused b/c its a damn shot, not a
>> come-on--and then sat across the room. I'll repeat that at the meeting, and
>> see if anyone disagrees.
>>
>> Those who /have/ known me sexually will recognize my strict adherence to
>> verbal consent. I've been in the scene for a decade now and am quite
>> familiar with the pleasures of consensual sex; this episode has been both
>> hilarious and insulting and we need to create a better way to handle
>> situations like it if we want to continue providing an extralegal venue.
>>
>> -dru
>>
>> On Jun 18, 2013 11:52 AM, "Andrew Byrne" <andrew at pachakutech.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > I think my actions here are the result of there being no framework
>> here, and an advocate (you, Liz) taking the position of moderator.
>> >
>> > If this had been handled in a kangaroo court, it would have more civil.
>> Don't point out my aggressive pursuit of the matter on list as "part of my
>> problem"; point out the lack of advocates as necessitating such action, or
>> the assumption of guilt and broken procedures as an invitation for abuse
>> and fraud.
>> >
>> > The Lillian matter, as seen /in detail/ here, had nothing to do with
>> what you just pointed out; my aggressive response to claims of sexual abuse
>> is what you seem to have a problem with.
>> >
>> > That's your problem.
>> > -dru
>> >
>> > On Jun 18, 2013 11:17 AM, "Liz Henry" <lizhenry at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> My thought here is that Dru's responses are indicative of the problem
>> people are pointing out.  His emails back and forth with Dante also are
>> very indicative of this problem as Dante says "don't sexualize our
>> interactions" and he continues doing so, while attempting to gaslight Dante
>> and telling him that he(Dru) know what he wants better than Dante knows it
>> . That is a very serious interpersonal problem.  Please consider it, Dru.
>> >>
>> >> I would describe this pattern (to be overly generous) as overstepping
>> what would commonly be thought of as a boundary socially and physically,
>> and sexualizing people and situations inappropriately, even after they set
>> a boundary explicitly.  Dru's emails continue that pattern right out in
>> public.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Liz
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Lillian Fleurs <
>> lillian.fleurs at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> @Daniel
>> >>> The medication I take is hardly experimental and has been prescribed
>> to me by a licensed physician. It's a common prescription given to anyone
>> with an incorrect balance of hormones, including those seeking treatment
>> for gender dysphoria. At the time I was homeless and the shot was already
>> several days late because I was trying to find a more suitable location.
>> Doing a sterile intramuscular injection in a private room in Noisebridge
>> seemed far more ideal than dealing with heat flashes and excessive
>> moodiness.
>> >>>
>> >>> @Dru
>> >>> I'd like to add that I was sitting far away from you, looking down in
>> shock from being violated. I kept trying to give you the benefit of the
>> doubt, but your complete denial of what happened and your inability to
>> apologize or defend your actions in a way that made sense leads me to
>> believe that my assumption that you're a sexual predator and don't belong
>> at Noisebridge is correct.
>> >>>
>> >>> As for advocates, anyone who's willing to stand for my side can email
>> me.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 5:32 PM, Daniel Kelly <
>> arrays.tostring at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> There are worse places than Noisebridge for injecting of
>> experimental medications with needles.
>> >>>> None immediately come to mind though.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Lillian Fleurs <
>> lillian.fleurs at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> You tried to unzip my pants for me, that's what initially made me
>> uncomfortable. You reached around my body, putting your hands very near my
>> genitals and began to unzip my pants for me. That's when I tensed up and
>> asked you what the fuck you were doing. You made me far too tense and
>> uncomfortable to receive a shot from you. It also wasn't until Kim came
>> into the room offering you weed that you actually left. Dante was not in
>> the room when it happened, it was only you and I. However Dante did see my
>> fear, shock and discomfort after the incident. And it was Dante who helped
>> calm me down enough to be able to receive my estrogen injection.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The email I sent to Tony, which was later sent to Liz is word for
>> word what happened. Below is a screenshot.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 12:13 PM, Andrew Byrne <
>> andrew at pachakutech.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Since this is all out on the list, I feel the need to present my
>> side; it is clear to me now what this is.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> For a few weeks, Lillian had asked of I could give her one of her
>> supplemental estrogen shots, and one night I was at NoiseBridge when
>> Lillian asked me to give her her shot. I said sure, she climbed up, laid
>> down on the table, and pulled down her jeans enough to expose her buttocks,
>> I readied the injection and placed my left hand on the back of her upper
>> thigh. She stiffened, and told me that she felt uncomfortable, so I
>> stopped, moved away, apologized for the discomfort and then left the room.
>> There was never a "what the fuck are you doing?".
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> It's pretty rich that /she/ is accusing me of cocaine use. It's
>> not out of my experience, but as I have dopamine insensitivity--ADD--the
>> stuff doesn't have the pleasure response for me that justifies the absurd
>> prices; that and the killing South Americans bit.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Unfortunately, the only other witness in the room was Dante I
>> think Dante was expelled from the Tuesday meeting two weeks ago and is
>> unquestionably her "other people"--Dante got angry when I sent him an email
>> invitation to a 'digital feminine' salon b/c he doesn't see himself as
>> feminine and started this whole process about three weeks after Lillian
>> left; it was then that Lillian "unfriended" me on Fb. That only sounds
>> trite until I add that she accepted my friend request after leaving SF for
>> wherever she is now.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I'd still like to drag up the Dante incident, as there were
>> several witnesses on my side and a documented willful misrepresentation to
>> Liz on Dante's. I would like to ask Liz now to retain copies of her emails
>> regarding this for possible subpoena.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> A friend? No you saw me as a rube.
>> >>>>>> -dru
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Jun 17, 2013 11:06 AM, "Lillian Fleurs" <
>> lillian.fleurs at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Well maybe you should have thought about these things before you
>> pinned me down on a table and began unzipping my pants without any
>> permission at all, refusing to stop even after I froze in fear asking what
>> the fuck you were doing. I was shaken after that. I used to like you Drew,
>> and it took me so long to report anything because I was worried about
>> hurting someone I thought was a good person. You seemed to be high on
>> cocaine or something, which initially allowed me to excuse the behavior. It
>> wasn't until other people made me realize this wasn't just a one off
>> incident that I decided to report what had happened. I recall you making
>> creepy sexual comments about others way before this incident too, so
>> looking back now I don't find what happened surprising and I probably could
>> have prevented being violated.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 12:33 AM, Andrew Byrne <
>> andrew at pachakutech.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> I would also like to point out the assumption of my guilt
>> throughout this discourse; I was told I was considered a sexual predator by
>> the anarcho-fem community a week before being contacted officially, and
>> this hateful trope has been driving me away from the space since. It will
>> doubtless screw with my social life for another few months and affects me
>> professionally; I can't even get a response from Mozilla's bug network now,
>> thanks to this. I know, hard to empathize with someone the mediator is
>> calling out, but once this is cleared up, I'd like this experience well
>> documented -dru
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> On Jun 16, 2013 9:29 PM, "Liz Henry" <lizhenry at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> I would also like for this to be discussed again in a meeting.
>> I brought this up at the meeting not last week but the week before. But, I
>> have not been in the greatest of health and have missed a lot of meetings.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> It was also brought to my attention that Jesse Z. wants to come
>> back to Noisebridge.   I do not think this is a good idea.  Basically, I
>> don't want to be around people who have behaved in the ways that either
>> Jesse and Dru have behaved.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> There are so many good things about Noisebridge, and about its
>> openness.  To keep that good for as many people as possible we do need to
>> have good boundaries.  And ask people who have shown great disrespect for
>> others by non consensual behavior to stay away and work out their issues to
>> learn better behavior in some other context, rather than being in the
>> middle of an space without much in the way of rules or safety.  Sexual
>> assault and other violent behavior destroys our ability to trust each
>> other. I want to be able to trust people at NB, and to be able to tell
>> others they are likely relatively safe there.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Best,
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Liz
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 8:41 PM, Lillian Fleurs <
>> lillian.fleurs at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> A member of the community known as Andrew "Dru" Byrne has yet
>> to be kicked out of the community. Right before I moved he did some
>> EXTREMELY inappropriate and non consensual things to me that extend far
>> beyond creepy. I sent some emails to Tony "LeTigre", who then forwarded
>> them to Liz. I had asked both of them to keep what had happened to me
>> anonymous. I'm coming out of anonymity because it appears nothing has been
>> done to get rid of someone who poses a high threat to other members of the
>> community (both male and female, trans and cis).
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately since I no longer live in San Francisco, I can
>> not show up to a Noisebridge meeting but I would like this issue brought
>> up, because others who still use the space have expressed to me that they
>> don't feel safe around Andrew either.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm sorry for the drama, but I'm not the one who started it.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>> >>>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
>> >>>>>>>>> Liz Henry
>> >>>>>>>>> lhenry at mozilla.com
>> >>>>>>>>> lizhenry at gmail.com
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>> >>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>> >>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>> >>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>> >>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>> >>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>> >>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>> >>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>> >>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>> >>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >>
>> >> .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
>> >> Liz Henry
>> >> lhenry at mozilla.com
>> >> lizhenry at gmail.com
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>> >> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>> >> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>> >>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/attachments/20130619/fb609e66/attachment.html>