[Noisebridge-discuss] It has come to my attention that...

Andrew Byrne andrew at pachakutech.com
Wed Jun 19 22:31:24 UTC 2013


I'd like to note: this represents the third time in this conversation that
my words have been grotesquely misinterpreted by normally quite reasonable
people.
On Jun 19, 2013 2:58 PM, "Nicholas LoCicero" <nick.locicero at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Okay Dru, you're just trying to make everything worse for yourself and
> then be able to blame others for why you can't come back.  We understand.
>  And we're here to help you, Dru.
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Andrew Byrne <andrew at pachakutech.com>wrote:
>
>> "Radical scene"
>> "Extralegal venue" = us determining guilt, innocence or mediation so we
>> can ask people to leave or not.
>>
>> And yes, let's lock out people who are creepy and predatory.
>>
>> Let's also recognize trolls.
>>
>> -dru
>> On Jun 19, 2013 10:40 AM, "rachel lyra hospodar" <rachelyra at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> "In the scene"?
>>> "An extralegal venue"?
>>>
>>> Maybe this is another case of noisbridge not actually being designed for
>>> everything. It's not a home, and it's certainly not a 'play space'.
>>>
>>> While Noisebridge is not kink-un-friendly, as we try to be welcoming to
>>> all, it is not part of sex-play community, and is in fact on the other end
>>> of the spectrum wrt to safety. Your scene is at The Citadel, bro, not here.
>>> Come here to solder your vibrator, not use it.
>>>
>>> The space is also not a 'venue' of any kind, legal or non. It's a
>>> community space, and one that has long been welcoming to many flavors of
>>> social awkwardness, as long as the awkward comes with a core of respect,
>>> wrapped around a desire to fucking hack.
>>>
>>> Not creepy predatory bullshit, though. Nope. Don't need that, thanks.
>>>
>>> R.
>>> On Jun 18, 2013 12:48 PM, "Andrew Byrne" <andrew at pachakutech.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'd also like to take this moment to examine this: my not responding in
>>>> a manner suitably respectful to the plaintiff is "the problem people are
>>>> pointing out". Because I seem to remember this was all about me forcing
>>>> non-consensual sexual contact, not writing emails that dismiss people's
>>>> feelings.
>>>>
>>>> The take home here, for those still watching, is that there are no
>>>> reports of me touching anyone when not asked to and that the one time I was
>>>> asked to stop, I did--though confused b/c its a damn shot, not a
>>>> come-on--and then sat across the room. I'll repeat that at the meeting, and
>>>> see if anyone disagrees.
>>>>
>>>> Those who /have/ known me sexually will recognize my strict adherence
>>>> to verbal consent. I've been in the scene for a decade now and am quite
>>>> familiar with the pleasures of consensual sex; this episode has been both
>>>> hilarious and insulting and we need to create a better way to handle
>>>> situations like it if we want to continue providing an extralegal venue.
>>>>
>>>> -dru
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 18, 2013 11:52 AM, "Andrew Byrne" <andrew at pachakutech.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > I think my actions here are the result of there being no framework
>>>> here, and an advocate (you, Liz) taking the position of moderator.
>>>> >
>>>> > If this had been handled in a kangaroo court, it would have more
>>>> civil. Don't point out my aggressive pursuit of the matter on list as "part
>>>> of my problem"; point out the lack of advocates as necessitating such
>>>> action, or the assumption of guilt and broken procedures as an invitation
>>>> for abuse and fraud.
>>>> >
>>>> > The Lillian matter, as seen /in detail/ here, had nothing to do with
>>>> what you just pointed out; my aggressive response to claims of sexual abuse
>>>> is what you seem to have a problem with.
>>>> >
>>>> > That's your problem.
>>>> > -dru
>>>> >
>>>> > On Jun 18, 2013 11:17 AM, "Liz Henry" <lizhenry at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> My thought here is that Dru's responses are indicative of the
>>>> problem people are pointing out.  His emails back and forth with Dante also
>>>> are very indicative of this problem as Dante says "don't sexualize our
>>>> interactions" and he continues doing so, while attempting to gaslight Dante
>>>> and telling him that he(Dru) know what he wants better than Dante knows it
>>>> . That is a very serious interpersonal problem.  Please consider it, Dru.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I would describe this pattern (to be overly generous) as
>>>> overstepping what would commonly be thought of as a boundary socially and
>>>> physically, and sexualizing people and situations inappropriately, even
>>>> after they set a boundary explicitly.  Dru's emails continue that pattern
>>>> right out in public.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Liz
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Lillian Fleurs <
>>>> lillian.fleurs at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> @Daniel
>>>> >>> The medication I take is hardly experimental and has been
>>>> prescribed to me by a licensed physician. It's a common prescription given
>>>> to anyone with an incorrect balance of hormones, including those seeking
>>>> treatment for gender dysphoria. At the time I was homeless and the shot was
>>>> already several days late because I was trying to find a more suitable
>>>> location. Doing a sterile intramuscular injection in a private room in
>>>> Noisebridge seemed far more ideal than dealing with heat flashes and
>>>> excessive moodiness.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> @Dru
>>>> >>> I'd like to add that I was sitting far away from you, looking down
>>>> in shock from being violated. I kept trying to give you the benefit of the
>>>> doubt, but your complete denial of what happened and your inability to
>>>> apologize or defend your actions in a way that made sense leads me to
>>>> believe that my assumption that you're a sexual predator and don't belong
>>>> at Noisebridge is correct.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> As for advocates, anyone who's willing to stand for my side can
>>>> email me.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 5:32 PM, Daniel Kelly <
>>>> arrays.tostring at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> There are worse places than Noisebridge for injecting of
>>>> experimental medications with needles.
>>>> >>>> None immediately come to mind though.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Lillian Fleurs <
>>>> lillian.fleurs at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> You tried to unzip my pants for me, that's what initially made me
>>>> uncomfortable. You reached around my body, putting your hands very near my
>>>> genitals and began to unzip my pants for me. That's when I tensed up and
>>>> asked you what the fuck you were doing. You made me far too tense and
>>>> uncomfortable to receive a shot from you. It also wasn't until Kim came
>>>> into the room offering you weed that you actually left. Dante was not in
>>>> the room when it happened, it was only you and I. However Dante did see my
>>>> fear, shock and discomfort after the incident. And it was Dante who helped
>>>> calm me down enough to be able to receive my estrogen injection.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> The email I sent to Tony, which was later sent to Liz is word for
>>>> word what happened. Below is a screenshot.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 12:13 PM, Andrew Byrne <
>>>> andrew at pachakutech.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> Since this is all out on the list, I feel the need to present my
>>>> side; it is clear to me now what this is.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> For a few weeks, Lillian had asked of I could give her one of
>>>> her supplemental estrogen shots, and one night I was at NoiseBridge when
>>>> Lillian asked me to give her her shot. I said sure, she climbed up, laid
>>>> down on the table, and pulled down her jeans enough to expose her buttocks,
>>>> I readied the injection and placed my left hand on the back of her upper
>>>> thigh. She stiffened, and told me that she felt uncomfortable, so I
>>>> stopped, moved away, apologized for the discomfort and then left the room.
>>>> There was never a "what the fuck are you doing?".
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> It's pretty rich that /she/ is accusing me of cocaine use. It's
>>>> not out of my experience, but as I have dopamine insensitivity--ADD--the
>>>> stuff doesn't have the pleasure response for me that justifies the absurd
>>>> prices; that and the killing South Americans bit.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> Unfortunately, the only other witness in the room was Dante I
>>>> think Dante was expelled from the Tuesday meeting two weeks ago and is
>>>> unquestionably her "other people"--Dante got angry when I sent him an email
>>>> invitation to a 'digital feminine' salon b/c he doesn't see himself as
>>>> feminine and started this whole process about three weeks after Lillian
>>>> left; it was then that Lillian "unfriended" me on Fb. That only sounds
>>>> trite until I add that she accepted my friend request after leaving SF for
>>>> wherever she is now.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> I'd still like to drag up the Dante incident, as there were
>>>> several witnesses on my side and a documented willful misrepresentation to
>>>> Liz on Dante's. I would like to ask Liz now to retain copies of her emails
>>>> regarding this for possible subpoena.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> A friend? No you saw me as a rube.
>>>> >>>>>> -dru
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 17, 2013 11:06 AM, "Lillian Fleurs" <
>>>> lillian.fleurs at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> Well maybe you should have thought about these things before
>>>> you pinned me down on a table and began unzipping my pants without any
>>>> permission at all, refusing to stop even after I froze in fear asking what
>>>> the fuck you were doing. I was shaken after that. I used to like you Drew,
>>>> and it took me so long to report anything because I was worried about
>>>> hurting someone I thought was a good person. You seemed to be high on
>>>> cocaine or something, which initially allowed me to excuse the behavior. It
>>>> wasn't until other people made me realize this wasn't just a one off
>>>> incident that I decided to report what had happened. I recall you making
>>>> creepy sexual comments about others way before this incident too, so
>>>> looking back now I don't find what happened surprising and I probably could
>>>> have prevented being violated.
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 12:33 AM, Andrew Byrne <
>>>> andrew at pachakutech.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> I would also like to point out the assumption of my guilt
>>>> throughout this discourse; I was told I was considered a sexual predator by
>>>> the anarcho-fem community a week before being contacted officially, and
>>>> this hateful trope has been driving me away from the space since. It will
>>>> doubtless screw with my social life for another few months and affects me
>>>> professionally; I can't even get a response from Mozilla's bug network now,
>>>> thanks to this. I know, hard to empathize with someone the mediator is
>>>> calling out, but once this is cleared up, I'd like this experience well
>>>> documented -dru
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jun 16, 2013 9:29 PM, "Liz Henry" <lizhenry at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> I would also like for this to be discussed again in a
>>>> meeting. I brought this up at the meeting not last week but the week
>>>> before. But, I have not been in the greatest of health and have missed a
>>>> lot of meetings.
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> It was also brought to my attention that Jesse Z. wants to
>>>> come back to Noisebridge.   I do not think this is a good idea.  Basically,
>>>> I don't want to be around people who have behaved in the ways that either
>>>> Jesse and Dru have behaved.
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> There are so many good things about Noisebridge, and about
>>>> its openness.  To keep that good for as many people as possible we do need
>>>> to have good boundaries.  And ask people who have shown great disrespect
>>>> for others by non consensual behavior to stay away and work out their
>>>> issues to learn better behavior in some other context, rather than being in
>>>> the middle of an space without much in the way of rules or safety.  Sexual
>>>> assault and other violent behavior destroys our ability to trust each
>>>> other. I want to be able to trust people at NB, and to be able to tell
>>>> others they are likely relatively safe there.
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Liz
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 8:41 PM, Lillian Fleurs <
>>>> lillian.fleurs at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> A member of the community known as Andrew "Dru" Byrne has
>>>> yet to be kicked out of the community. Right before I moved he did some
>>>> EXTREMELY inappropriate and non consensual things to me that extend far
>>>> beyond creepy. I sent some emails to Tony "LeTigre", who then forwarded
>>>> them to Liz. I had asked both of them to keep what had happened to me
>>>> anonymous. I'm coming out of anonymity because it appears nothing has been
>>>> done to get rid of someone who poses a high threat to other members of the
>>>> community (both male and female, trans and cis).
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately since I no longer live in San Francisco, I can
>>>> not show up to a Noisebridge meeting but I would like this issue brought
>>>> up, because others who still use the space have expressed to me that they
>>>> don't feel safe around Andrew either.
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm sorry for the drama, but I'm not the one who started it.
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> --
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Liz Henry
>>>> >>>>>>>>> lhenry at mozilla.com
>>>> >>>>>>>>> lizhenry at gmail.com
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>> >>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>> >>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>> >>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>> >>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>> >>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>> >>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>> >>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> --
>>>> >>
>>>> >> .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
>>>> >> Liz Henry
>>>> >> lhenry at mozilla.com
>>>> >> lizhenry at gmail.com
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>> >> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>> >> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>> >>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>
>>
>
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