[Noisebridge-discuss] It has come to my attention that...

Andrew Byrne andrew at pachakutech.com
Thu Jun 20 07:46:41 UTC 2013


That you think anything here involves me putting my hand down /any/one's
pants or that this has even been suggested, would indicate you haven't been
paying attention. The "bad touch" alleged here was in the motion to
unbutton the pants of a person who asked for a shot, then laid motionless
face down on a table. No skin-skin contact.

Bonus points for creative writing, though. Intravenous? Shameless. -dru
On Jun 20, 2013 12:11 AM, "Danny O'Brien" <danny at spesh.com> wrote:

> Man, how can this keep happening, Dru? Every time you stick your hand down
> the pants of someone while ostensibly help them intravenously inject
> medicine in the corner of a place that's for teaching Python, it seems like
> otherwise rational people leap to all kind of grotesque misunderstandings!
>
> Can't a person pursue their non-creepy pursuit of entirely consensual
> sexuality in a dark corner of a hackerspace without having the thought
> police come along and misinterpret their defences of entirely unwarranted
> semi-naked drug shooting up complaints by the person who had their pants
> entered as something *grotesque*? What's our culture coming to?
>
> This is just like that time when the white power tattooed chap came into
> the space, and people were in some way disturbed by their narrowminded
> assumption that somebody who has a creed that specifically calls for the
> death or expatriation of people based on their race TATTOOED ONTO THEIR
> NECK might be in some way disturbing to others, or worse, might even have
> some sympathy to that particular opinion.
>
> How do people get so prissy and close-minded that a person can't tattoo
> nazi imagery onto the back of their neck, then, when asked to help out with
> the shooting up of medicine in a dark corner of a place for soldering
> Arduinos, can't cop a quick feel without everyone turning into all
> "lah-di-dah maybe we should talk about your behaviour in a semi-serious
> fashion" thought police?
>
> Makes you wonder who the fuck *are* these people, anyway?
>
> d.
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 5:31 AM, Andrew Byrne <andrew at pachakutech.com>wrote:
>
>> I'd like to note: this represents the third time in this conversation
>> that my words have been grotesquely misinterpreted by normally quite
>> reasonable people.
>>  On Jun 19, 2013 2:58 PM, "Nicholas LoCicero" <nick.locicero at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Okay Dru, you're just trying to make everything worse for yourself and
>>> then be able to blame others for why you can't come back.  We understand.
>>>  And we're here to help you, Dru.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Andrew Byrne <andrew at pachakutech.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Radical scene"
>>>> "Extralegal venue" = us determining guilt, innocence or mediation so we
>>>> can ask people to leave or not.
>>>>
>>>> And yes, let's lock out people who are creepy and predatory.
>>>>
>>>> Let's also recognize trolls.
>>>>
>>>> -dru
>>>> On Jun 19, 2013 10:40 AM, "rachel lyra hospodar" <rachelyra at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "In the scene"?
>>>>> "An extralegal venue"?
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe this is another case of noisbridge not actually being designed
>>>>> for everything. It's not a home, and it's certainly not a 'play space'.
>>>>>
>>>>> While Noisebridge is not kink-un-friendly, as we try to be welcoming
>>>>> to all, it is not part of sex-play community, and is in fact on the other
>>>>> end of the spectrum wrt to safety. Your scene is at The Citadel, bro, not
>>>>> here. Come here to solder your vibrator, not use it.
>>>>>
>>>>> The space is also not a 'venue' of any kind, legal or non. It's a
>>>>> community space, and one that has long been welcoming to many flavors of
>>>>> social awkwardness, as long as the awkward comes with a core of respect,
>>>>> wrapped around a desire to fucking hack.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not creepy predatory bullshit, though. Nope. Don't need that, thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> R.
>>>>> On Jun 18, 2013 12:48 PM, "Andrew Byrne" <andrew at pachakutech.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd also like to take this moment to examine this: my not responding
>>>>>> in a manner suitably respectful to the plaintiff is "the problem people are
>>>>>> pointing out". Because I seem to remember this was all about me forcing
>>>>>> non-consensual sexual contact, not writing emails that dismiss people's
>>>>>> feelings.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The take home here, for those still watching, is that there are no
>>>>>> reports of me touching anyone when not asked to and that the one time I was
>>>>>> asked to stop, I did--though confused b/c its a damn shot, not a
>>>>>> come-on--and then sat across the room. I'll repeat that at the meeting, and
>>>>>> see if anyone disagrees.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Those who /have/ known me sexually will recognize my strict adherence
>>>>>> to verbal consent. I've been in the scene for a decade now and am quite
>>>>>> familiar with the pleasures of consensual sex; this episode has been both
>>>>>> hilarious and insulting and we need to create a better way to handle
>>>>>> situations like it if we want to continue providing an extralegal venue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -dru
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 18, 2013 11:52 AM, "Andrew Byrne" <andrew at pachakutech.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I think my actions here are the result of there being no framework
>>>>>> here, and an advocate (you, Liz) taking the position of moderator.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > If this had been handled in a kangaroo court, it would have more
>>>>>> civil. Don't point out my aggressive pursuit of the matter on list as "part
>>>>>> of my problem"; point out the lack of advocates as necessitating such
>>>>>> action, or the assumption of guilt and broken procedures as an invitation
>>>>>> for abuse and fraud.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The Lillian matter, as seen /in detail/ here, had nothing to do
>>>>>> with what you just pointed out; my aggressive response to claims of sexual
>>>>>> abuse is what you seem to have a problem with.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > That's your problem.
>>>>>> > -dru
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On Jun 18, 2013 11:17 AM, "Liz Henry" <lizhenry at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> My thought here is that Dru's responses are indicative of the
>>>>>> problem people are pointing out.  His emails back and forth with Dante also
>>>>>> are very indicative of this problem as Dante says "don't sexualize our
>>>>>> interactions" and he continues doing so, while attempting to gaslight Dante
>>>>>> and telling him that he(Dru) know what he wants better than Dante knows it
>>>>>> . That is a very serious interpersonal problem.  Please consider it, Dru.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> I would describe this pattern (to be overly generous) as
>>>>>> overstepping what would commonly be thought of as a boundary socially and
>>>>>> physically, and sexualizing people and situations inappropriately, even
>>>>>> after they set a boundary explicitly.  Dru's emails continue that pattern
>>>>>> right out in public.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Liz
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Lillian Fleurs <
>>>>>> lillian.fleurs at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> @Daniel
>>>>>> >>> The medication I take is hardly experimental and has been
>>>>>> prescribed to me by a licensed physician. It's a common prescription given
>>>>>> to anyone with an incorrect balance of hormones, including those seeking
>>>>>> treatment for gender dysphoria. At the time I was homeless and the shot was
>>>>>> already several days late because I was trying to find a more suitable
>>>>>> location. Doing a sterile intramuscular injection in a private room in
>>>>>> Noisebridge seemed far more ideal than dealing with heat flashes and
>>>>>> excessive moodiness.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> @Dru
>>>>>> >>> I'd like to add that I was sitting far away from you, looking
>>>>>> down in shock from being violated. I kept trying to give you the benefit of
>>>>>> the doubt, but your complete denial of what happened and your inability to
>>>>>> apologize or defend your actions in a way that made sense leads me to
>>>>>> believe that my assumption that you're a sexual predator and don't belong
>>>>>> at Noisebridge is correct.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> As for advocates, anyone who's willing to stand for my side can
>>>>>> email me.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 5:32 PM, Daniel Kelly <
>>>>>> arrays.tostring at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> There are worse places than Noisebridge for injecting of
>>>>>> experimental medications with needles.
>>>>>> >>>> None immediately come to mind though.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Lillian Fleurs <
>>>>>> lillian.fleurs at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> You tried to unzip my pants for me, that's what initially made
>>>>>> me uncomfortable. You reached around my body, putting your hands very near
>>>>>> my genitals and began to unzip my pants for me. That's when I tensed up and
>>>>>> asked you what the fuck you were doing. You made me far too tense and
>>>>>> uncomfortable to receive a shot from you. It also wasn't until Kim came
>>>>>> into the room offering you weed that you actually left. Dante was not in
>>>>>> the room when it happened, it was only you and I. However Dante did see my
>>>>>> fear, shock and discomfort after the incident. And it was Dante who helped
>>>>>> calm me down enough to be able to receive my estrogen injection.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> The email I sent to Tony, which was later sent to Liz is word
>>>>>> for word what happened. Below is a screenshot.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 12:13 PM, Andrew Byrne <
>>>>>> andrew at pachakutech.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>> Since this is all out on the list, I feel the need to present
>>>>>> my side; it is clear to me now what this is.
>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>> For a few weeks, Lillian had asked of I could give her one of
>>>>>> her supplemental estrogen shots, and one night I was at NoiseBridge when
>>>>>> Lillian asked me to give her her shot. I said sure, she climbed up, laid
>>>>>> down on the table, and pulled down her jeans enough to expose her buttocks,
>>>>>> I readied the injection and placed my left hand on the back of her upper
>>>>>> thigh. She stiffened, and told me that she felt uncomfortable, so I
>>>>>> stopped, moved away, apologized for the discomfort and then left the room.
>>>>>> There was never a "what the fuck are you doing?".
>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>> It's pretty rich that /she/ is accusing me of cocaine use.
>>>>>> It's not out of my experience, but as I have dopamine
>>>>>> insensitivity--ADD--the stuff doesn't have the pleasure response for me
>>>>>> that justifies the absurd prices; that and the killing South Americans bit.
>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>> Unfortunately, the only other witness in the room was Dante I
>>>>>> think Dante was expelled from the Tuesday meeting two weeks ago and is
>>>>>> unquestionably her "other people"--Dante got angry when I sent him an email
>>>>>> invitation to a 'digital feminine' salon b/c he doesn't see himself as
>>>>>> feminine and started this whole process about three weeks after Lillian
>>>>>> left; it was then that Lillian "unfriended" me on Fb. That only sounds
>>>>>> trite until I add that she accepted my friend request after leaving SF for
>>>>>> wherever she is now.
>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>> I'd still like to drag up the Dante incident, as there were
>>>>>> several witnesses on my side and a documented willful misrepresentation to
>>>>>> Liz on Dante's. I would like to ask Liz now to retain copies of her emails
>>>>>> regarding this for possible subpoena.
>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>> A friend? No you saw me as a rube.
>>>>>> >>>>>> -dru
>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 17, 2013 11:06 AM, "Lillian Fleurs" <
>>>>>> lillian.fleurs at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>> Well maybe you should have thought about these things before
>>>>>> you pinned me down on a table and began unzipping my pants without any
>>>>>> permission at all, refusing to stop even after I froze in fear asking what
>>>>>> the fuck you were doing. I was shaken after that. I used to like you Drew,
>>>>>> and it took me so long to report anything because I was worried about
>>>>>> hurting someone I thought was a good person. You seemed to be high on
>>>>>> cocaine or something, which initially allowed me to excuse the behavior. It
>>>>>> wasn't until other people made me realize this wasn't just a one off
>>>>>> incident that I decided to report what had happened. I recall you making
>>>>>> creepy sexual comments about others way before this incident too, so
>>>>>> looking back now I don't find what happened surprising and I probably could
>>>>>> have prevented being violated.
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 12:33 AM, Andrew Byrne <
>>>>>> andrew at pachakutech.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I would also like to point out the assumption of my guilt
>>>>>> throughout this discourse; I was told I was considered a sexual predator by
>>>>>> the anarcho-fem community a week before being contacted officially, and
>>>>>> this hateful trope has been driving me away from the space since. It will
>>>>>> doubtless screw with my social life for another few months and affects me
>>>>>> professionally; I can't even get a response from Mozilla's bug network now,
>>>>>> thanks to this. I know, hard to empathize with someone the mediator is
>>>>>> calling out, but once this is cleared up, I'd like this experience well
>>>>>> documented -dru
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jun 16, 2013 9:29 PM, "Liz Henry" <lizhenry at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I would also like for this to be discussed again in a
>>>>>> meeting. I brought this up at the meeting not last week but the week
>>>>>> before. But, I have not been in the greatest of health and have missed a
>>>>>> lot of meetings.
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It was also brought to my attention that Jesse Z. wants to
>>>>>> come back to Noisebridge.   I do not think this is a good idea.  Basically,
>>>>>> I don't want to be around people who have behaved in the ways that either
>>>>>> Jesse and Dru have behaved.
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There are so many good things about Noisebridge, and about
>>>>>> its openness.  To keep that good for as many people as possible we do need
>>>>>> to have good boundaries.  And ask people who have shown great disrespect
>>>>>> for others by non consensual behavior to stay away and work out their
>>>>>> issues to learn better behavior in some other context, rather than being in
>>>>>> the middle of an space without much in the way of rules or safety.  Sexual
>>>>>> assault and other violent behavior destroys our ability to trust each
>>>>>> other. I want to be able to trust people at NB, and to be able to tell
>>>>>> others they are likely relatively safe there.
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Liz
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 8:41 PM, Lillian Fleurs <
>>>>>> lillian.fleurs at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> A member of the community known as Andrew "Dru" Byrne has
>>>>>> yet to be kicked out of the community. Right before I moved he did some
>>>>>> EXTREMELY inappropriate and non consensual things to me that extend far
>>>>>> beyond creepy. I sent some emails to Tony "LeTigre", who then forwarded
>>>>>> them to Liz. I had asked both of them to keep what had happened to me
>>>>>> anonymous. I'm coming out of anonymity because it appears nothing has been
>>>>>> done to get rid of someone who poses a high threat to other members of the
>>>>>> community (both male and female, trans and cis).
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately since I no longer live in San Francisco, I
>>>>>> can not show up to a Noisebridge meeting but I would like this issue
>>>>>> brought up, because others who still use the space have expressed to me
>>>>>> that they don't feel safe around Andrew either.
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm sorry for the drama, but I'm not the one who started
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Liz Henry
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> lhenry at mozilla.com
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> lizhenry at gmail.com
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> >>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> >>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> >>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>> >>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> >>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>> >>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> --
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
>>>>>> >> Liz Henry
>>>>>> >> lhenry at mozilla.com
>>>>>> >> lizhenry at gmail.com
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> >> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>> >> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
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