[Noisebridge-discuss] It has come to my attention that...

Thu Jun 20 18:31:39 UTC 2013

In the initial email, Liz was mediating.  Is this still the case?  If not,
I am unsure if we will be unable to find a neutral party on this matter.

On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 10:39 AM, Andrew Byrne <andrew at pachakutech.com>wrote:

> At the meeting, it was decided this would be taken to mediation; I've been
> waiting for someone to speak up about that, as I felt it unwise to ask it
> myself. I'm done here and look forward to the process.
>
> Best to all
> -dru
> On Jun 20, 2013 10:24 AM, "Jeffrey Carl Faden" <jeffreyatw at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> (Sorry, I forgot Lillian is not in SF anymore. Regardless, my suggestion
>> to take this up for consensus still applies, if Andrew would like to defend
>> himself in a more official context.)
>>
>> Jeffrey
>>
>> On Jun 20, 2013, at 10:19 AM, Jeffrey Carl Faden <jeffreyatw at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Andrew, please take this up for consensus at a Tuesday meeting if making
>> a decision about who gets kicked out is important to you. There is no way
>> that further argument on this list is going to reveal the actual details of
>> what happened.
>>
>> Almost everyone on this list is tired of hearing this back-and-forth.
>> Safety is an important issue at Noisebridge, but hurt pride is not. You are
>> not successfully defending yourself - in fact, every message you send
>> further paints you as insecure and unaware of Noisebridge's actual purpose.
>>
>> Lillian, I hate to victim-blame, but please consider soliciting help with
>> taking your medication somewhere else.
>>
>> Jeffrey
>>
>> On Jun 20, 2013, at 9:54 AM, Andrew Byrne <andrew at pachakutech.com> wrote:
>>
>> Good email, good email.
>>
>> Three points: as Lillian mentioned, I did not go so far as to unzip her
>> pants-- she asked me to stop before that.
>>
>> It was pretty common for other people to give Lillian her intramuscular
>> estrogen injection in the space; I was clearing abiding by cultural norms
>> there; she asked me to join her alone in the turing room for privacy.
>>
>> It's not a random conspiracy, it's two people we would normally call
>> "oogles" who were quite tight and one of whom (Dante) I insulted. IMO, the
>> deliberate prevarications in the back and forth below give great credence
>> to this idea.
>>
>> <sarcasm>I love being lumped in with the white supremicists and the
>> people who do nothing but Facebook ("oogles") <\sarcasm>, but like you
>> said, you've given up objectivity, are tired of dialog, and would like to
>> move on to action. It's better to paint that picture with a wide brush,
>> Danny, but for the fact you will get egg on yourself. I'd advise you to
>> actually read this parody of a sexual assault claim instead of jumping to
>> the dog-eared sections. -dru
>> On Jun 20, 2013 2:32 AM, "Danny O'Brien" <danny at spesh.com> wrote:
>>
>>> You see, this is just what I'm talking about. You unzip someone's pants
>>> without their permission ONCE in a hackerspace, and suddenly everyone is
>>> acting like that's not a mistake that *anyone* could make.
>>>
>>> I think pretty much that Noisebridge would die tomorrow if we to take
>>> the extreme action of telling people who are all about the injecting, or
>>> the unzipping, or the nazi tattooing,  and asked them never to come back.
>>> It's almost certain to me that people to inject or unzip or white power
>>> tattoo-wield, are the lifeblood of any hackerspace.
>>>
>>> The oversensitive people who freak out and never come back because
>>> Noisebridge seems to be filled with people who see absolutely no problem in
>>> injecting medicine, unzipping clothes and then stoutly defend their act in
>>> the face of the person who they unzipped going WTF, or hanging around
>>> without thinking that maybe, just maybe, their white power tattoo might be
>>> a bit... how can I say, de trop.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm joking of course.
>>>
>>> What I mean to say here is: WHAT THE FUCK? WHAT THE LIVING, FUCKING FUCK
>>> FUCK THE FUCK?
>>>
>>> Are you people so *INSANE* that you think that ANY OF THIS is acceptable
>>> behaviour ANYWHERE?
>>>
>>> Have you wandered SO FAR off the MAIN SEQUENCE of HUMANITY that you
>>> think that not only ANY OF THIS STUFF is okay, and not the stuff of writing
>>> "okay boy i fucked up really badly there maybe i'm going to spend like six
>>> months with just me a copy of the world's literature and Eliza, the AI
>>> therapist to work out how to sort my screwed out self out", let alone
>>> posting screeds EVEN LONGER THAN THIS one stoutly defending yourself and
>>> thinking there is some sort of power-structure conspiracy to persecute you
>>> from your god-given right to spend hours a day unzipping and zipping in A
>>> ROOM WITH SOME 3D PRINTERS IN IT?
>>>
>>> Look, together I am happy to work with people to create amazing tools
>>> and think new thoughts, have funny stories to tell, and strange robots to
>>> build, but I am finally fading in the jolly side-activity of gently guiding
>>> people in the apparently tricky task of not spending THREE DAYS IN A ROW
>>> without doing something so INCOMPREHENDINGLY AND UNCONSCIOUSLY
>>> TRANSGRESSIVE that they don't even anticipate anyone raising a single
>>> spock-like eyebrow.
>>>
>>> Let me count the ways here:
>>>
>>> 1) Spraying your art endlessly over the space until people coming in
>>> can't blink without the after-image stencil of a stockinged lady burned
>>> into your retina, and then being amazed when people ask you to maybe stick
>>> to just the one beautiful expression of your novelty.
>>>
>>> 2) Sitting for 6 hours plus watching YouTube waggling your head like
>>> you're channelling the spirit every headbanger who has died of an embolism,
>>> and then crying censorship when someone hacks the DNS to redirect YouTube
>>> and Facebook to our wiki.
>>>
>>> 3) Deciding to hide out in a tiny space only accessible by the elevator,
>>> then ALMOST DYING when the elevator breaks OBVIOUSLY, fighting out through
>>> a wall, THEN COMING BACK TO THE SPACE AS THOUGH NOTHING HAS HAPPENED.
>>>
>>> 4) Answering EVERY move to throw some sorry person's ass out by saying
>>> "but $PERSON does $MUCH_WORSE_THING" as though anyone is going to go "Oh
>>> good point, in the interest of natural justice and to fight our own
>>> hypocrisy, we should let off the guy who is making sarin in the fridge
>>> because we didn't quite catch the lady refining uranium 235 in the
>>> lavatories last week", instead of expecting the obvious reply "WHY THE HELL
>>> DID YOU NOT STOP THE $PERSON instead of waiting for somebody else to do it"
>>>
>>> 5) Endlessly bitching about the terrifying threat of the "members"
>>> imposing their restrictive culture on the free and easy environment of the
>>> "non-members"' using their tyrannous non-democratic rules, when a) nobody
>>> knows who the hell is a member and who isn't anyway, and none of the
>>> members care, and b) simultaneously complaining that the MEMBERS need to
>>> step up and throw out the people you don't like, but who apparently you
>>> can't quite work out a reason to throw out that might not also include
>>> yourself.
>>>
>>> I realise that out of the above, the unzipping thing applies to you Dru,
>>> but seriously, dude, it's not like this is the only person saying you do
>>> VERY CREEPY THINGS.
>>>
>>> You know how many people say "you do very creepy things" to 90% of the
>>> population? NOBODY SAYS THAT TO THEM. Y
>>>
>>> ou know what people who get told "you do creepy things" generally do?
>>> THEY STOP DOING THE CREEPY THINGS.
>>>
>>> They do NOT construct a random conspiracy theory of people who are
>>> trying to exclude them for unknown reasons (but which may have to do with
>>> an undeniable World Conspiracy Against Creepy Unzipperers)
>>>
>>> Yes, I know "but Weev", I know "but free speech", I know 'but anarchy",
>>> I know "but consensus", I know 'but kyriarchy", I know "but crazy
>>> geniuses".
>>>
>>> Let me be as tactful as I no longer can:
>>>
>>> I CAN NO LONGER DEFEND THE COLOURFUL BEHAVIOUR OF YOU PEOPLE WHO CAN'T
>>> EVEN FIND ANOTHER PLACE TO EAT BREAKFAST.
>>>
>>> It is a tragedy! It is probably society's fault. But you're COOKING YOUR
>>> MEALS in a HACKERSPACE. This is like you COOKING AND HANGING OUT in a
>>> COLLEGE LABORATORY. Yes, I know we said that science is awesome and
>>> everyone should do it and maybe we can transform politics and art and
>>> culture with it, but you ACTUALLY HAVE TO DO IT.
>>>
>>> YOU ARE NOT DOING IT. YOU ARE NOT DOING ANYTHING . YOU ARE BARELY EVEN
>>> GETTING BY IN THIS WORLD.
>>>
>>> YOU KNOW THIS. I KNOW THIS. BUT IT IS TIME YOU DID SOMETHING ABOUT IT
>>> THAN BRINGING YOUR DOG TO NOISEBRIDGE TO TALK TO OTHERS ABOUT IT.
>>>
>>> The only way you can even be INTERESTING is by hanging around where
>>> OTHER PEOPLE MIGHT DO INTERESTING things and SCOWL AT THEM when THE
>>> INTERESTING THINGS GET LOUDER THAN THE DUMB YOUTUBE VIDEOS YOU ARE WATCHING.
>>>
>>> AND NO, I DO MEAN YOU. If you are reading this and firmly agree with 80%
>>> of my targets, but then go "hold on that's a bit too far" I DO MEAN YOU.
>>>
>>> If you go "god maybe he is right and I am not doing enough awesome
>>> stuff" I am not talking about you.
>>>
>>> If you have sat in the library for MONTHS and never at ANY POINT gone "I
>>> wonder how I can mess with that game-of-life LED board to do something
>>> else", I mean you.
>>>
>>> If you HAVE thought that, but you have never got around to it, you
>>> SHOULD PROBABLY START WORRYING ABOUT YOURSELF RIGHT NOW AND START EATING
>>> BREAKFAST ELSEWHERE.
>>>
>>> You are a smart, engaged person who can read email, but you need to stop
>>> hanging around a hackerspace and SORT OUT YOUR LIFE.
>>>
>>> I am done, guys!! I am the nice kind bearded authority figure dude who
>>> gets you your money to do this, and sides with Leif when everyone else is
>>> like "maybe we should ask the guy with the FUCK THE NERDS facial carving
>>> and the sixteen heroin needles hanging out of his ass" to die in a fire. I
>>> am the one in any given situation to be MOST LIKELY TO BE ON YOUR SIDE. I
>>> have complicated politics and upbringing and issues which mean that I tend
>>> to side with outsiders occasionally to the slight detriment of my own
>>> carefully shored-up and middle-class fat-cat lifestyle.
>>>
>>> I AM NO LONGER EVEN APPARENTLY ON YOUR SIDE. I AM DISCARDING MY NOTIONS
>>> OF NEUTRALITY TO ASK YOU TO GO AWAY.
>>>
>>> YES EVEN WHEN YOU EMAIL ME PRIVATELY WITH YOUR STUPID IDEAS ABOUT MAKING
>>> THE PLACE MORE INCLUSIVE.
>>>
>>> GO AWAY. GO AWAY GO AWAY GO AWAY.
>>>
>>> I heard that there is a dysfunctional free drama group in Vallejo that
>>> you could join! There is a writer's group in a free university that needs
>>> contributors! I saw a Craiglist advert for a new group therapy center run
>>> by friendly Falun Gong sympathisers in the Presidio! There is a couch in
>>> the middle of an unused lot in Treasure island! It has one person there who
>>> you can get into arguments about how much of the couch he is taking up!
>>> Maybe he will let you help him nonconsensually unzip his pants.
>>>
>>> WOULD ANYONE ELSE LIKE TO TALK TO ME ABOUT HASKELL?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Who hasn't, after all, in a few moments after talking about Haskell
>>> monads, casually done something like that?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 2:46 PM, Andrew Byrne <andrew at pachakutech.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> That you think anything here involves me putting my hand down
>>>> /any/one's pants or that this has even been suggested, would indicate you
>>>> haven't been paying attention. The "bad touch" alleged here was in the
>>>> motion to unbutton the pants of a person who asked for a shot, then laid
>>>> motionless face down on a table. No skin-skin contact.
>>>>
>>>> Bonus points for creative writing, though. Intravenous? Shameless. -dru
>>>> On Jun 20, 2013 12:11 AM, "Danny O'Brien" <danny at spesh.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Man, how can this keep happening, Dru? Every time you stick your hand
>>>>> down the pants of someone while ostensibly help them intravenously inject
>>>>> medicine in the corner of a place that's for teaching Python, it seems like
>>>>> otherwise rational people leap to all kind of grotesque misunderstandings!
>>>>>
>>>>> Can't a person pursue their non-creepy pursuit of entirely consensual
>>>>> sexuality in a dark corner of a hackerspace without having the thought
>>>>> police come along and misinterpret their defences of entirely unwarranted
>>>>> semi-naked drug shooting up complaints by the person who had their pants
>>>>> entered as something *grotesque*? What's our culture coming to?
>>>>>
>>>>> This is just like that time when the white power tattooed chap came
>>>>> into the space, and people were in some way disturbed by their narrowminded
>>>>> assumption that somebody who has a creed that specifically calls for the
>>>>> death or expatriation of people based on their race TATTOOED ONTO THEIR
>>>>> NECK might be in some way disturbing to others, or worse, might even have
>>>>> some sympathy to that particular opinion.
>>>>>
>>>>> How do people get so prissy and close-minded that a person can't
>>>>> tattoo nazi imagery onto the back of their neck, then, when asked to help
>>>>> out with the shooting up of medicine in a dark corner of a place for
>>>>> soldering Arduinos, can't cop a quick feel without everyone turning into
>>>>> all "lah-di-dah maybe we should talk about your behaviour in a semi-serious
>>>>> fashion" thought police?
>>>>>
>>>>> Makes you wonder who the fuck *are* these people, anyway?
>>>>>
>>>>> d.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 5:31 AM, Andrew Byrne <andrew at pachakutech.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd like to note: this represents the third time in this conversation
>>>>>> that my words have been grotesquely misinterpreted by normally quite
>>>>>> reasonable people.
>>>>>>  On Jun 19, 2013 2:58 PM, "Nicholas LoCicero" <
>>>>>> nick.locicero at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Okay Dru, you're just trying to make everything worse for yourself
>>>>>>> and then be able to blame others for why you can't come back.  We
>>>>>>> understand.  And we're here to help you, Dru.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Andrew Byrne <
>>>>>>> andrew at pachakutech.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Radical scene"
>>>>>>>> "Extralegal venue" = us determining guilt, innocence or mediation
>>>>>>>> so we can ask people to leave or not.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And yes, let's lock out people who are creepy and predatory.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Let's also recognize trolls.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -dru
>>>>>>>> On Jun 19, 2013 10:40 AM, "rachel lyra hospodar" <
>>>>>>>> rachelyra at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "In the scene"?
>>>>>>>>> "An extralegal venue"?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Maybe this is another case of noisbridge not actually being
>>>>>>>>> designed for everything. It's not a home, and it's certainly not a 'play
>>>>>>>>> space'.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> While Noisebridge is not kink-un-friendly, as we try to be
>>>>>>>>> welcoming to all, it is not part of sex-play community, and is in fact on
>>>>>>>>> the other end of the spectrum wrt to safety. Your scene is at The Citadel,
>>>>>>>>> bro, not here. Come here to solder your vibrator, not use it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The space is also not a 'venue' of any kind, legal or non. It's a
>>>>>>>>> community space, and one that has long been welcoming to many flavors of
>>>>>>>>> social awkwardness, as long as the awkward comes with a core of respect,
>>>>>>>>> wrapped around a desire to fucking hack.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not creepy predatory bullshit, though. Nope. Don't need that,
>>>>>>>>> thanks.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> R.
>>>>>>>>> On Jun 18, 2013 12:48 PM, "Andrew Byrne" <andrew at pachakutech.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'd also like to take this moment to examine this: my not
>>>>>>>>>> responding in a manner suitably respectful to the plaintiff is "the problem
>>>>>>>>>> people are pointing out". Because I seem to remember this was all about me
>>>>>>>>>> forcing non-consensual sexual contact, not writing emails that dismiss
>>>>>>>>>> people's feelings.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The take home here, for those still watching, is that there are
>>>>>>>>>> no reports of me touching anyone when not asked to and that the one time I
>>>>>>>>>> was asked to stop, I did--though confused b/c its a damn shot, not a
>>>>>>>>>> come-on--and then sat across the room. I'll repeat that at the meeting, and
>>>>>>>>>> see if anyone disagrees.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Those who /have/ known me sexually will recognize my strict
>>>>>>>>>> adherence to verbal consent. I've been in the scene for a decade now and am
>>>>>>>>>> quite familiar with the pleasures of consensual sex; this episode has been
>>>>>>>>>> both hilarious and insulting and we need to create a better way to handle
>>>>>>>>>> situations like it if we want to continue providing an extralegal venue.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -dru
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 18, 2013 11:52 AM, "Andrew Byrne" <andrew at pachakutech.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > I think my actions here are the result of there being no
>>>>>>>>>> framework here, and an advocate (you, Liz) taking the position of moderator.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > If this had been handled in a kangaroo court, it would have
>>>>>>>>>> more civil. Don't point out my aggressive pursuit of the matter on list as
>>>>>>>>>> "part of my problem"; point out the lack of advocates as necessitating such
>>>>>>>>>> action, or the assumption of guilt and broken procedures as an invitation
>>>>>>>>>> for abuse and fraud.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > The Lillian matter, as seen /in detail/ here, had nothing to do
>>>>>>>>>> with what you just pointed out; my aggressive response to claims of sexual
>>>>>>>>>> abuse is what you seem to have a problem with.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > That's your problem.
>>>>>>>>>> > -dru
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > On Jun 18, 2013 11:17 AM, "Liz Henry" <lizhenry at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >> My thought here is that Dru's responses are indicative of the
>>>>>>>>>> problem people are pointing out.  His emails back and forth with Dante also
>>>>>>>>>> are very indicative of this problem as Dante says "don't sexualize our
>>>>>>>>>> interactions" and he continues doing so, while attempting to gaslight Dante
>>>>>>>>>> and telling him that he(Dru) know what he wants better than Dante knows it
>>>>>>>>>> . That is a very serious interpersonal problem.  Please consider it, Dru.
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >> I would describe this pattern (to be overly generous) as
>>>>>>>>>> overstepping what would commonly be thought of as a boundary socially and
>>>>>>>>>> physically, and sexualizing people and situations inappropriately, even
>>>>>>>>>> after they set a boundary explicitly.  Dru's emails continue that pattern
>>>>>>>>>> right out in public.
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >> Liz
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >> On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Lillian Fleurs <
>>>>>>>>>> lillian.fleurs at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>> @Daniel
>>>>>>>>>> >>> The medication I take is hardly experimental and has been
>>>>>>>>>> prescribed to me by a licensed physician. It's a common prescription given
>>>>>>>>>> to anyone with an incorrect balance of hormones, including those seeking
>>>>>>>>>> treatment for gender dysphoria. At the time I was homeless and the shot was
>>>>>>>>>> already several days late because I was trying to find a more suitable
>>>>>>>>>> location. Doing a sterile intramuscular injection in a private room in
>>>>>>>>>> Noisebridge seemed far more ideal than dealing with heat flashes and
>>>>>>>>>> excessive moodiness.
>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>> @Dru
>>>>>>>>>> >>> I'd like to add that I was sitting far away from you, looking
>>>>>>>>>> down in shock from being violated. I kept trying to give you the benefit of
>>>>>>>>>> the doubt, but your complete denial of what happened and your inability to
>>>>>>>>>> apologize or defend your actions in a way that made sense leads me to
>>>>>>>>>> believe that my assumption that you're a sexual predator and don't belong
>>>>>>>>>> at Noisebridge is correct.
>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>> As for advocates, anyone who's willing to stand for my side
>>>>>>>>>> can email me.
>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 5:32 PM, Daniel Kelly <
>>>>>>>>>> arrays.tostring at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>> There are worse places than Noisebridge for injecting of
>>>>>>>>>> experimental medications with needles.
>>>>>>>>>> >>>> None immediately come to mind though.
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Lillian Fleurs <
>>>>>>>>>> lillian.fleurs at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> You tried to unzip my pants for me, that's what initially
>>>>>>>>>> made me uncomfortable. You reached around my body, putting your hands very
>>>>>>>>>> near my genitals and began to unzip my pants for me. That's when I tensed
>>>>>>>>>> up and asked you what the fuck you were doing. You made me far too tense
>>>>>>>>>> and uncomfortable to receive a shot from you. It also wasn't until Kim came
>>>>>>>>>> into the room offering you weed that you actually left. Dante was not in
>>>>>>>>>> the room when it happened, it was only you and I. However Dante did see my
>>>>>>>>>> fear, shock and discomfort after the incident. And it was Dante who helped
>>>>>>>>>> calm me down enough to be able to receive my estrogen injection.
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> The email I sent to Tony, which was later sent to Liz is
>>>>>>>>>> word for word what happened. Below is a screenshot.
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 12:13 PM, Andrew Byrne <
>>>>>>>>>> andrew at pachakutech.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> Since this is all out on the list, I feel the need to
>>>>>>>>>> present my side; it is clear to me now what this is.
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> For a few weeks, Lillian had asked of I could give her one
>>>>>>>>>> of her supplemental estrogen shots, and one night I was at NoiseBridge when
>>>>>>>>>> Lillian asked me to give her her shot. I said sure, she climbed up, laid
>>>>>>>>>> down on the table, and pulled down her jeans enough to expose her buttocks,
>>>>>>>>>> I readied the injection and placed my left hand on the back of her upper
>>>>>>>>>> thigh. She stiffened, and told me that she felt uncomfortable, so I
>>>>>>>>>> stopped, moved away, apologized for the discomfort and then left the room.
>>>>>>>>>> There was never a "what the fuck are you doing?".
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> It's pretty rich that /she/ is accusing me of cocaine use.
>>>>>>>>>> It's not out of my experience, but as I have dopamine
>>>>>>>>>> insensitivity--ADD--the stuff doesn't have the pleasure response for me
>>>>>>>>>> that justifies the absurd prices; that and the killing South Americans bit.
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> Unfortunately, the only other witness in the room was
>>>>>>>>>> Dante I think Dante was expelled from the Tuesday meeting two weeks ago and
>>>>>>>>>> is unquestionably her "other people"--Dante got angry when I sent him an
>>>>>>>>>> email invitation to a 'digital feminine' salon b/c he doesn't see himself
>>>>>>>>>> as feminine and started this whole process about three weeks after Lillian
>>>>>>>>>> left; it was then that Lillian "unfriended" me on Fb. That only sounds
>>>>>>>>>> trite until I add that she accepted my friend request after leaving SF for
>>>>>>>>>> wherever she is now.
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> I'd still like to drag up the Dante incident, as there
>>>>>>>>>> were several witnesses on my side and a documented willful
>>>>>>>>>> misrepresentation to Liz on Dante's. I would like to ask Liz now to retain
>>>>>>>>>> copies of her emails regarding this for possible subpoena.
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> A friend? No you saw me as a rube.
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> -dru
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 17, 2013 11:06 AM, "Lillian Fleurs" <
>>>>>>>>>> lillian.fleurs at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Well maybe you should have thought about these things
>>>>>>>>>> before you pinned me down on a table and began unzipping my pants without
>>>>>>>>>> any permission at all, refusing to stop even after I froze in fear asking
>>>>>>>>>> what the fuck you were doing. I was shaken after that. I used to like you
>>>>>>>>>> Drew, and it took me so long to report anything because I was worried about
>>>>>>>>>> hurting someone I thought was a good person. You seemed to be high on
>>>>>>>>>> cocaine or something, which initially allowed me to excuse the behavior. It
>>>>>>>>>> wasn't until other people made me realize this wasn't just a one off
>>>>>>>>>> incident that I decided to report what had happened. I recall you making
>>>>>>>>>> creepy sexual comments about others way before this incident too, so
>>>>>>>>>> looking back now I don't find what happened surprising and I probably could
>>>>>>>>>> have prevented being violated.
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 12:33 AM, Andrew Byrne <
>>>>>>>>>> andrew at pachakutech.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I would also like to point out the assumption of my
>>>>>>>>>> guilt throughout this discourse; I was told I was considered a sexual
>>>>>>>>>> predator by the anarcho-fem community a week before being contacted
>>>>>>>>>> officially, and this hateful trope has been driving me away from the space
>>>>>>>>>> since. It will doubtless screw with my social life for another few months
>>>>>>>>>> and affects me professionally; I can't even get a response from Mozilla's
>>>>>>>>>> bug network now, thanks to this. I know, hard to empathize with someone the
>>>>>>>>>> mediator is calling out, but once this is cleared up, I'd like this
>>>>>>>>>> experience well documented -dru
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jun 16, 2013 9:29 PM, "Liz Henry" <lizhenry at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I would also like for this to be discussed again in a
>>>>>>>>>> meeting. I brought this up at the meeting not last week but the week
>>>>>>>>>> before. But, I have not been in the greatest of health and have missed a
>>>>>>>>>> lot of meetings.
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It was also brought to my attention that Jesse Z. wants
>>>>>>>>>> to come back to Noisebridge.   I do not think this is a good idea.
>>>>>>>>>> Basically, I don't want to be around people who have behaved in the ways
>>>>>>>>>> that either Jesse and Dru have behaved.
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There are so many good things about Noisebridge, and
>>>>>>>>>> about its openness.  To keep that good for as many people as possible we do
>>>>>>>>>> need to have good boundaries.  And ask people who have shown great
>>>>>>>>>> disrespect for others by non consensual behavior to stay away and work out
>>>>>>>>>> their issues to learn better behavior in some other context, rather than
>>>>>>>>>> being in the middle of an space without much in the way of rules or
>>>>>>>>>> safety.  Sexual assault and other violent behavior destroys our ability to
>>>>>>>>>> trust each other. I want to be able to trust people at NB, and to be able
>>>>>>>>>> to tell others they are likely relatively safe there.
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Liz
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 8:41 PM, Lillian Fleurs <
>>>>>>>>>> lillian.fleurs at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> A member of the community known as Andrew "Dru" Byrne
>>>>>>>>>> has yet to be kicked out of the community. Right before I moved he did some
>>>>>>>>>> EXTREMELY inappropriate and non consensual things to me that extend far
>>>>>>>>>> beyond creepy. I sent some emails to Tony "LeTigre", who then forwarded
>>>>>>>>>> them to Liz. I had asked both of them to keep what had happened to me
>>>>>>>>>> anonymous. I'm coming out of anonymity because it appears nothing has been
>>>>>>>>>> done to get rid of someone who poses a high threat to other members of the
>>>>>>>>>> community (both male and female, trans and cis).
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately since I no longer live in San Francisco,
>>>>>>>>>> I can not show up to a Noisebridge meeting but I would like this issue
>>>>>>>>>> brought up, because others who still use the space have expressed to me
>>>>>>>>>> that they don't feel safe around Andrew either.
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm sorry for the drama, but I'm not the one who
>>>>>>>>>> started it.
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Liz Henry
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> lhenry at mozilla.com
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> lizhenry at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> >>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> >>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> >>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> >>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >> --
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >> .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
>>>>>>>>>> >> Liz Henry
>>>>>>>>>> >> lhenry at mozilla.com
>>>>>>>>>> >> lizhenry at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> >> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> >> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>
>

-- 
Ronald Cotoni
Systems Engineer
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