[Noisebridge-discuss] It has come to my attention that...

Lillian Fleurs lillian.fleurs at gmail.com
Sun Jun 23 22:49:11 UTC 2013


Mark,

As long as there are people like you or Drew around, I will definitely not
be showing my face around Noisebridge. I have no idea what actions of mine
might have deemed Drew's behavior acceptable, but I'll surely take
responsibility for them if you manage to point those out. I was using
understatements the entire time, and it wasn't until I noticed that people
were blowing off a very serious issue as if nothing happened that I started
being honest (what you're calling hyperboles) what I *really* feel
happened. This email thread was *NEVER* about me anyways. I was just going
to leave the issue alone and try not to think about what happened. I
started this thread in the list because *other people* who were still at
the space reached out to me about how they felt uncomfortable with his
presence. I personally didn't even want to think about what happened,
especially considering the fact that I've been trying to build a life out
here and didn't want to be bothered by what I left behind. It has nothing
to do with me as a victim and everything to do with making Noisebridge a
safe space, I only shared my story to bring light to the issue.

This is going to be my last email to the list, I'm unsubscribing after
this. And don't expect to see me at Noisebridge again, even when (if) I do
come down to the bay to visit.

Lillian


On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 7:27 AM, Socrates Wilde <wildesocrates at gmail.com>wrote:

> Lilly,
>
> This has gone to far. You've blown this out of proportion and the latest
> hyperbole ("*FUCKING SEX OFFENDER**")* is the last straw as far as I'm
> concerned. You are now an aider and abettor of the sexual police state. You
> refuse to take responsibility for your own actions, and hide behind the
> stale "I'm a victim" rhetoric of the Stalinist feminists Andrea Dworkin and
> Catherine McKinnon.
> *
> *
> *You* are the one acting like a sociopathic predator.
>
> I will never be polite and friendly to you ever again. As far as I'm
> concerned, you are now* persona non grata* along with your sociopathic
> friend, Tony.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 12:04 AM, Lillian Fleurs <lillian.fleurs at gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> I created this thread as a way to notify the public that there's a *FUCKING
>> SEX OFFENDER* at your community hacker space. I don't even want to deal
>> with the issue any longer. If everyone there feels completely okay with
>> someone who has sexually harassed multiple people in the space, then that's
>> your problem not mine. What the fuck is wrong with most of you people?
>> Honestly.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 10:29 PM, Naomi Gmail <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Why don't I?  Because I'm not the one who gives a shit.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 20, 2013, at 10:28 PM, Ever Falling <everfalling at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> So someone starts diverting the topic to something else and I have to
>>> make an entire new thread to tell that person to make /their/ own thread?
>>> Why don't you make your own thread telling me to make my own thread telling
>>> Danny to make his own thread? Or realize that's bullshit and simply asking
>>> someone to get back on topic doesn't necessitate its /own/ topic.
>>>
>>> This is the sort of convoluted shit that drives people away. Danny is at
>>> no fault for helping to take the topic elsewhere, even to attack someone
>>> asking them to return it to the original topic, but if i reiterate that
>>> request I'm the one causing commotion? You're all very silly people.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 10:22 PM, Naomi Gmail <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You -- yes you -- have the power to start a new thread at any time.
>>>> Instead you complain about how no one does it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 20, 2013, at 10:14 PM, Ever Falling <everfalling at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Which would be?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 10:13 PM, Naomi Gmail <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 20, 2013, at 8:34 PM, Ever Falling <everfalling at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> >I think you might find other spaces that are explicitly political,
>>>>> aimed at helping the homeless, or have an social justice aim.
>>>>>
>>>>> Pretty sure this is the opposite of what her complaint was about. This
>>>>> thread was about the issue between Lillian and Dru. Any topics other than
>>>>> this should be taken to another thread so that they can work on the topic
>>>>> at hand. Is that a hard thing to ask for on this discuss list? That things
>>>>> don't devolve into yet another quagmire about what the space is or isn't?
>>>>> As crude as she put it that's what it seems her complaint was about. All
>>>>> you're doing is concentrating on the negative and continuing off topic. At
>>>>> the very least take it to 1-on-1 e-mails as, again, it's off topic.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You realize you've just proven Danny's point about you?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 8:09 PM, Danny O'Brien <danny at spesh.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 8:28 AM, Bill Gag <billgag11 at yahoo.com>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The fact that the building gets more respect than people who are
>>>>>>> sick of its classism is part of the problem too. Deal with the rapist. The
>>>>>>> issue would have happened either way, being that Dru fits the requirements
>>>>>>> most elites hold over the space, maybe not to who it did, but someone else
>>>>>>> people would have actually cared about.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As you know, Noisebridge is a do-acracy. Is there something that is
>>>>>> stopping you from working on this problem? I and people I know have worked
>>>>>> on several cases like this, which led to people being banned, and other
>>>>>> spaces being warned of those people's behaviour. It's hard work, it puts
>>>>>> you under suspicion of working under an agenda, and loses you friends.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You've been here a long time. You clearly make claims of wanting to
>>>>>> work on social justice topics. Why have you, to my knowledge, never done
>>>>>> this work?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At least completely and utterly erase any leftist ties this place
>>>>>>> claims, because like stalinism, this shit is too capitalist to be leftist.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We never had any leftist ties. We have a wide range of political
>>>>>> opinions here, mostly more unorthodox, and the organization itself is
>>>>>> apolitical.
>>>>>> Maybe you can edit the wiki to better make that clear?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can totally put that we're a classist, building-centric bunch of
>>>>>> exclusionists. Frankly at this point it would really help. I will be honest
>>>>>> here and say that, in sort of reversal of you, I have become so
>>>>>> disillusioned by what I have seen by people in the space who adopt a
>>>>>> specifically political stance of the world, that I am about done with it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> God this board is such a headache I dont want to talk to most of you,
>>>>>>> I am not in that headspace, just put this back on topic of DREW and Ill
>>>>>>> debate this other shit with others once I have the spoons
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You've been hanging out in the space a *really* long time. I've never
>>>>>> actually seen you work on a project. What is it that you expect from the
>>>>>> space? What do you want to do?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here is what I think, brutally. I think you've spent a long time at
>>>>>> Noisebridge, without finding out about what Noisebridge is. I think you
>>>>>> hang about the space as a social environment without really contributing
>>>>>> anything to its core work. I think your expectation that others will deal
>>>>>> with problems that arise is part of the attitude that leads to others
>>>>>> exploiting the space for their own ends.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think you might find other spaces that are explicitly political,
>>>>>> aimed at helping the homeless, or have an social justice aim.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I said before, if you don't want to deal with a stupid science
>>>>>> lab, you should go somewhere else. We're a stupid science lab.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> d.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   ------------------------------
>>>>>>>  *From:* Danny O'Brien <danny at spesh.com>
>>>>>>> *To:* Bill Gag <billgag11 at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>> *Cc:* "noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net" <
>>>>>>> noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>
>>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, June 20, 2013 6:10 PM
>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] It has come to my attention
>>>>>>> that...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Oh, and I should probably say despite my ranting and despite the
>>>>>>> serious tone of this email, I can almost certainly be persuaded back from
>>>>>>> my descent into Stalinism and back to joyous acceptance of all
>>>>>>> Noisebridge's craziness, in all its forms. I'm pretty sure it would be
>>>>>>> really easy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> d.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 7:55 AM, Danny O'Brien <danny at spesh.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 6:47 AM, Bill Gag <billgag11 at yahoo.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The fact that this discussion has gone from Dru's behavior to more
>>>>>>> people bitching about their stupid science lab being used as a resource by
>>>>>>> homeless people is disgusting, Dru's behavior is terrible even if the space
>>>>>>> was a fucking office.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The fact that every discussion has to be used to define the space is
>>>>>>> irritating enough but this discussion is no place for that shit, get the
>>>>>>> fuck out of here and be safe at home.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hey Kim,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You're right that it's important to make the stupid science lab safe
>>>>>>> for everyone. But, speaking personally, I can't do that *and* make it as a
>>>>>>> resource for homeless people or people who are just generally hanging out.
>>>>>>> It's too much. It takes a lot of time and energy to deal with the normal
>>>>>>> traumatastic drama that emerges from dealing with all the problems that
>>>>>>> hacker culture has, *and* deal with people who are trying to deal with a
>>>>>>> bunch of other societal issues, like poverty, homelessness and mental
>>>>>>> illness, *plus* the people who prey on open spaces and open communities in
>>>>>>> general.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's a stupid science lab, but that's all it is meant to be. We had
>>>>>>> a science lab experiment trying to make it welcoming by just being open all
>>>>>>> the time so that anyone could come in at any time, but in the end that just
>>>>>>> end up excluding whole classes of people (including a lot of whiteboy
>>>>>>> hackers, but also hackers of every other kind), and constructing an
>>>>>>> atmosphere of entitlement with a bunch of people who aren't doing the stuff
>>>>>>> that the place is designed to encourage.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm burned out, because the place needs smart, enthusiastic, vaguely
>>>>>>> sane people to help things run smoothly, and a great deal of my time is
>>>>>>> dominated by the consequences of people who clutch hold of it for other
>>>>>>> reasons than it was designed for, and need to, frankly, sort their shit out
>>>>>>> somewhere else.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You've only just subscribe to nb-discuss, Kim, but you know that
>>>>>>> I've invested a lot of time social sysadminning trying to sort out problems
>>>>>>> among people and mediate solutions. I don't really often go off on one like
>>>>>>> this. But really, I have to draw the line somewhere.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So here's one the new lines I'm drawing for myself. If you think
>>>>>>> that this is a "stupid science lab", please leave.  Anyone who seriously
>>>>>>> says that for a moment is not welcome by me, anymore. You should go. There
>>>>>>> are other places you can go, less full of horrible science geeks. There are
>>>>>>> other places you can build yourself, that might be more welcoming.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We have a lot of problems, and we can't solve them all, and right
>>>>>>> now, we can't solve yours, particularly when you're actively scorning the
>>>>>>> very reason we wanted to share our space with you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm sorry. Please go.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> d.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The fact is, that making the space exclusive or anything of that
>>>>>>> sort would NOT solve this problem, the presence of predatory men and people
>>>>>>> there to defend them is, and no matter how you view the space, this needs
>>>>>>> to be dealt with, because as long as humans use noisebridge there will be
>>>>>>> this sorta shit.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because its not a safe space. Its a hostile one, only safe for white
>>>>>>> men with houses or jobs. Until that changes, this shit will continue. The
>>>>>>> argument over the use of the space is merely an extension of this shit
>>>>>>> behavior.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>
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>>
>
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