[Noisebridge-discuss] It has come to my attention that...

Sun Jun 23 21:01:08 UTC 2013

Liz.
"One of these email exchanges"and "several people" is some particular
wording. Please relate to the list how this is the only email exchange and
these are the only two people; it looks like you have an agenda otherwise.

Now I wrote a tipsy email I to someone I had plenty of communication with
that could respect the rather confused person's better, yes. But seeing
this, you persisted in presenting that /email/ as me not knowing to stop
touching when there is a "no" (and there was only hugs the night in
question as witnessed by Kim and Dante) *is an entirely different thing*

Ah: "confused person", may I note how hard it is to tie these two things
together: I'd like you to see if there is one indication of me bringing
Lillian's sexuality into question. No? Then let's look at that one email
exchange you just posted. Does it say that he is confused? Yes. Tying
femininity with sexuality or gender is being mightily confused.

So gaslighting. I can see how that email exchange could be seen as
inappropriate out of the context of the rather long discussions he and I
have had since we met a year ago, and hey, maybe if you and I had talked
about that, or mediated around that, this show would not have piloted. But
repeated pattern?
Hardly; in this thread, one I have to answer to for my own protection, I've
been asking for clarification, always accepting without question Lillian's
version of events, and have wound up at a scene where a 6'1' MtF
transperson screams in a terrified voice "what the fuck are you doing" in
nb, and no-one even peeps their head in the door. Oh, and her pants stayed
on once it became clear that her removing her pants just messes up her
claim.

This is not "gaslighting" Liz, its someone who is honest being open about a
situation with someone who is parodying a sexual assault case; I encourage
you to read Lillian's latest on this list; it's exemplary.

I'm actually surprised that the person who could have--through
emails--abjured the need for me to limelight the facts of the matter is the
one who is blaming me for my defense. What is, of course, inexcusable, is
those who bang the drum of sexual assault, though they have all the
evidence to the contrary.

As I said to you right away, I'm open to immediate mediation on this
subject; you seem to be an advocate rather than a mediator, and finding
someone to advocate for Lillian is what has been holding back the process.

-dru
 On Jun 23, 2013 9:16 AM, "Liz Henry" <lizhenry at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hey there.  I had offered to bring up the accusations against Dru at a
> meeting and to talk with him about his perception of what had happened.   I
> asked Dru not to contact Dante and not to do any sort of
> massage/medical/energy work in the space.  Then, I missed some meetings,
> then I brought it up at a meeting but it was at the end of a long difficult
> meeting. then I got the flu and then went out of town for a week during
> which Carl stepped up to say he would try to move the issue forward at a
> meeting.  I hoped that at the least, bringing it up at the meeting would
> let people know there is an issue, they should use caution, and their own
> judgment about it in the meantime.
>
> From talking with Dru and from various email exchanges I I did not feel
> that he had understood some of the ways that he disrespects interpersonal
> boundaries.   While he would agree with my statements on the surface, he
> continued to sexualise Dante and Lilian, to bring up things they did, said,
> or that he feels they "are" in ways that directly contradict Dante and
> LIlian's statements, and to explain his own sexuality to me and his
> attractions to other people. He wants to frame his interactions with them
> as them being confused about their own sexuality, and as immature for not
> understanding themselves.  And from Dru's point of view Dante and Lillian
> are "trolling".
>
> The other pattern that emerged on communication was that when a boundary
> is set, Dru will immediately go over it,  and then gaslight the
> boundary-setter. In this case, then the people who have asserted their
> boundaries get angry. Their angry responses are then used by Dru as
> evidence that they are irrational. That is a horrible communication pattern.
>
> I am NOT saying that therefore, Dru is a rapist!  I am saying that
> therefore, Dru is very difficult to communicate with and it is hard to
> extend any social trust to him .  I am sorry that sounds complicated.
>
> I can't agree with Dru's responses in any way.  His responses were weird
> and perturbing. I didn't want to publish them to the list because they had
> so many more attacks on Dante and Lilian and others that it didn't seem
> quite right.   Personally  I do not want to engage any further with Dru. I
> don't trust him, and I would be quite happy to ask him not to come back to
> Noisebridge.
>
> One of the email exchanges that shows this pattern is included below as an
> example.
>
> Now, I would like to also say that my attempt to give a layer of privacy
> to the several people who complained,  backfired and the first time I
> wasn't able to go to a meeting to bring this up, I should have found a
> responsible person to do it.  So a bunch of the delay is my fault. I am
> sorry about that.
>
> - Liz
>
>
>
>
>
> >>>>>
>
>  Forwarded conversation
>
> Subject: Last minute salon invite
>
> ------------------------
>
> From: Andrew Byrne <andrew at pachakutech.com>
>
> Date: Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 1:03 PM
>
> To: Dante Cassius <exaltedunmelody at gmail.com>
>
> A client of mine is hosting a Salon. There is talking, art, drinking,
> eating, philosophizing && The title 'digital femininity' made me think of
> you.
>
> It is tonight, Wednesday the 24th in the mission.
>
> ----------
>
> From: Dante Cassius <exaltedunmelody at gmail.com>
>
> Date: Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 1:06 PM
>
> To: Andrew Byrne <andrew at pachakutech.com>
>
>
>  I'm going to be honest dude, the fact that you keep referring to me as
> feminine on multiple occasions especially combined with the way you were
> touching me during energy work at noisebridge is making me extremely
> uncomfortable.
>
> ----------
>
> From: Andrew Byrne <andrew at pachakutech.com>
>
> Date: Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 5:08 AM
>
> To: Dante Cassius <exaltedunmelody at gmail.com>
>
> Aiight dude, just because you publicly identify as fem doesn't mean that's
> how I should regard you. Fair. Fair. I'm actually into giving rope to the
> willing, so  you can say you are a pineapple, and I'd still think the same
> of you, waiting for you to mature into a sexual being...
>
> ... I'll never regard you as the fem, ever again, if you like. Know that I
> see fem in everyone though...
>
> Touching.
>
> I felt a lot of things from you that day. Unless you want to explore those
> elements of yourself, I'd keep our relationship to a boyish regard if I
> were you. Alternatively, I'd enjoy experiencing our bodies together, but
> maybe that's out of your comprehension. Know that I hold you in exquisite
> regard either way.
>
> ----------
>
> From: Dante Cassius <exaltedunmelody at gmail.com>
>
> Date: Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 10:47 AM
>
> To: Andrew Byrne <andrew at pachakutech.com>
>
>
>  What the fuck?
>
> I DON'T publicly identify as fem. Quite the opposite and I've said so
> several times. Now you want to act like I was coming on to YOU, or
> something, when I've never thought of us as anything but friends.
>
> For future reference, by the way, if someone tells you you're making them
> uncomfortable? You fucking APOLOGIZE and then STOP. You don't sit there and
> tell me I was coming on to you and in denial about it. I'd say "fuck you"
> but you'd probably take that as a come-on, so go die in a fire you creepy
> prick.
>
> ----------
>
> From: Andrew Byrne <andrew at pachakutech.com>
>
> Date: Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 12:29 PM
>
> To: Dante Cassius <exaltedunmelody at gmail.com>
>
> Lol, rly?
>
> You are a confused child, and conflating too many points for me to assume
> you are arguing in good faith.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 1:36 AM, Yan Zhu <yan at mit.edu> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I unfortunately could not make it to the meeting last Tuesday, but it
>> seems that an accurate summary of the decision there is that Carl and Kevin
>> are designated mediators between Drew and the accusing parties. The meeting
>> notes <https://noisebridge.net/wiki/Meeting_Notes_2013_06_18> do not
>> indicate whether there are deadlines for the mediation process to start/end
>> or whether any part of the mediation process has to be executed
>> transparently.
>>
>> Although mediation seems fair and reasonable, I can completely understand
>> how someone can get the impression that Noisebridge hasn't given the
>> situation the attention it deserves just from reading the meeting notes. At
>> the very least, I would like answers to:
>> * Has the mediation process started already?
>> * If so, what has been done? If not, are there ways in which we can
>> expedite the process?
>>
>> Given that this is a high-priority issue for not only the involved
>> parties but also any Noisebridge community members who care about creating
>> a safe, respectful space, it would be distressing to me to see "mediation"
>> treated as a black box that eventually solves things. Mainly I'm concerned
>> about the process taking an indefinite amount of time and making the people
>> who have been hurt feel like their emotions are being ignored.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Yan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 12:11 AM, Lillian Fleurs <
>> lillian.fleurs at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I mean really? Mediation? For a potential RAPIST.
>>>
>>> What the fuck is wrong with you guys? It's not like I'll ever be back
>>> there anyways, I have my own life elsewhere. But WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG
>>> WITH YOU GUYS? You'd happily go into a space with a rapist who hacks but
>>> won't go into one with a few harmless homeless kid who use the kitchen? You
>>> guys have some SERIOUS fucking moral issues you need to sort out.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Yan Zhu
>> http://web.mit.edu/zyan/www/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
> Liz Henry
> lhenry at mozilla.com
> lizhenry at gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>
>
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