[Noisebridge-discuss] door "security": culture, not policy.

[Sai]

> your objection to any course of action is telling of your defeatism.

I did no such thing, Jake.

Quite explicitly the opposite: I said that I don't think your
suggestion that we somehow turn people away at the gate is even
well-thought-through — something you basically admitted, by saying you
*don't* have any criteria for doing so — and that instead we should
focus on the humanization aspects about getting people to interact in
person.

Moving the lock to the top would *increase* the motivation to
meet-and-talk — something I think is a good thing in all regards, both
for security and for friendliness.

I think that filtering people at the gate not only doesn't happen, but
it can't, and that having the door buzzer be delayed simply enables
people to (as Naomi accurately described) just behave on reflex to
unlock the door, and go sit back down by the time the person has come
upstairs. Let's at least be honest about that, give up on the gate
"security", and focus on the IRL interaction.

I find it somewhat offensive that you totally disregarded what I actually said.

- Sai


On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 11:25 PM, Jake <jake at spaz.org> wrote:
> your objection to any course of action is telling of your defeatism.
>
> I suggest that by increasing the individual accountability of people who
> choose to buzz the door open for others, we are increasing the chance that
> those people will make sure they know something about the people they let
> in.  If it's someone they recognize, they might buzz them in and return to
> what they are doing.  If it is someone they don't recognize, they are more
> likely to wait for them to arrive at the top of the stairs and introduce
> themselves.
>
> right now there is no motivation for people to talk to and meet the people
> they are letting into the space.  This anonymity makes the space ripe for
> abuse by people who have no connection to hacking.  If it is harder to get
> in and people without codes have to depend on people with codes, there will
> be more interpersonal interaction and that will result in better regulation
> of the space, and the people using it.
>
> -jake
>
>
> On Fri, 22 Mar 2013, Sai wrote:
>
>> So are there any criteria you can articulate for when to not let
>> someone into the building?
>>
>> If not, I suggest giving up on that idea and making it about
>> humanization. IMO it's a strategy much more likely to be effective
>> than "do they look suspicious on the grainy street cam" pseudostrategy
>> which is in place now.
>>
>> - Sai
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 8:46 PM, Jake <jake at spaz.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> i'm just saying that the act of letting people into the building is a big
>>> deal and people should take responsibility for it and use their best
>>> judgement.
>>>
>>> the alternative is not working.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, 22 Mar 2013, Sai wrote:
>>>
>>>> So… practical question.
>>>>
>>>> I can see that, if you're intending to prevent someone from entering,
>>>> you should do so at the street. However… that doesn't really seem to
>>>> be in the cards here.
>>>>
>>>> If someone wants in to NB, they can probably get in, by waiting for
>>>> someone to use the door, asking someone else to let them in, etc etc.
>>>> AFAICT the point of the "greet at door" bit is not to turn people
>>>> away, but to humanize the space, make sure new people get introduced,
>>>> have others aware of who's walking around, that sort of thing.
>>>>
>>>> You seem to be suggesting otherwise, so: could you please suggest
>>>> guidelines for who you think should be refused entrance, that can be
>>>> done via a shitty videophone? E.g. what questions must someone be able
>>>> to answer over intercom? Must they be recognized by someone in the
>>>> space? Must they not look some particular way?
>>>>
>>>> I'd bet that you can't. (Possibly with the exception of uniformed
>>>> police or obvious Secret Service?)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Unless I'm wrong with that bet, I'd suggest we own up to the fact that
>>>> what's really on the table is face-to-face interaction in the space,
>>>> with the (extremely rare) possibility of ejecting someone who is there
>>>> — and not, really, turning people away at the gate.
>>>>
>>>> The two call for fairly different responses. Moving the lock to the
>>>> top door would help for the humanize version. A better camera and a
>>>> door way light would help for at-the-gate version.
>>>>
>>>> - Sai
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 12:03 AM, Jake <jake at spaz.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> here we go again...
>>>>>
>>>>> also i'll remind everyone that as tenants of 2169 mission it is our
>>>>> responsibility to not allow anyone into the building (past the main
>>>>> gate)
>>>>> who we are not allowing into the third floor.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2012-February/028220.html
>>>>>
>>>>> [Noisebridge-discuss] Upstairs door latch mechanism?
>>>>> Jake jake at spaz.org
>>>>> Fri Feb 10 02:34:39 PST 2012
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess a bunch of people have been talking about latching or locking
>>>>> the
>>>>> upstairs door.
>>>>>
>>>>> Are you people crazy?  Don't you realize that by the time someone is
>>>>> upstairs they feel as though they are practically inside the space
>>>>> already?
>>>>>
>>>>> If you can't turn someone away at the sidewalk, and they get to the top
>>>>> of
>>>>> the stairs, it is only going to make them angry if you refuse to let
>>>>> them
>>>>> in.  It is going to create more conflict, not less, especially if you
>>>>> use
>>>>> the smarmy little porthole to shield yourself while refusing to let
>>>>> someone in while someone else comes up behind you and second-guesses
>>>>> your
>>>>> decision in front of the person.
>>>>>
>>>>> have you ever been at a teller window (post office for example) where
>>>>> the
>>>>> clerk, who is telling you NO you can't have what you came here for, is
>>>>> isolated behind a 2" thick piece of lexan with a tiny little breathing
>>>>> hole where you're supposed to talk and listen through?  Do you remember
>>>>> feeling hostility toward that person and wondering what you would do if
>>>>> you could reach through the little hole and strangle them?
>>>>>
>>>>> well that's whats going to happen to you if you try to keep people out
>>>>> at
>>>>> the top of the stairs, because eventually someone is going to open the
>>>>> door and that person is going to come in anyway, and be pissed at you.
>>>>>
>>>>> We need to focus on bouncing people at the sidewalk door.  If you are
>>>>> having trouble understanding this concept, please ask some people whose
>>>>> opinion you trust before continuing with this idea of locking the
>>>>> upstairs
>>>>> door.
>>>>>
>>>>> sincerely,
>>>>> -jake
>>>>>
>>>>> Casey Callendrello wrote (Thu Feb 9 22:58:35 PST 2012):
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi there.
>>>>> The upstairs door is already keyed with the A-key. However, the latch
>>>>> mechanism has been removed. Does anyone know where it is?
>>>>>
>>>>> If not, I'll try to order a new one. The crash bar is a "Von Duprin
>>>>> 44".
>>>>> However, these parts are surprisingly expensive and hard to track down.
>>>>>
>>>>> --c.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Casey Callendrello wrote:
>>>>> Adding a lock to the upstairs door is quite doable. I've looked in to
>>>>> this before. There are a few things that need to be done:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) Some boring locksmithy stuff of getting some locks re-keyed
>>>>> 2) Re-building the elevator lobby door. Not too hard
>>>>> 3) Electronic strikes for both doors
>>>>> 4) Pin pads for both doors
>>>>>
>>>>> 1 and 2 are easy. 3 and 4 are also pretty simple, but will take some
>>>>> proper effort.
>>>>>
>>>>> --Casey
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3/21/13 11:34 AM, Martin Bogomolni wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In changing the problem I'm aligned with Rachel.  Move the lock from
>>>>>> -downstairs- to the upstairs door.   Also move the pin pad to the
>>>>>> upstairs door.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For our mobility-impaired members, and people who come on bikes, do
>>>>>> the same with an alternate wide door at the top landing where the
>>>>>> elevator is.   (Wall up the side door, make a sure door in front of
>>>>>> the elevator.   It's relatively easy to frame it up and put in a
>>>>>> prehung door.   Costs are pretty controlled for this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -M
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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