[Noisebridge-discuss] On Asking People To Leave (Was Re: Shawn L. )

Sun Mar 10 08:08:26 UTC 2013

# dekuji frantisek...

# no worries...ever...

# you will love the amount of notches i have on my>>
# claymore troll sword smithed in the highlands and>>
# strengthened further by katana masters that train me...

# i hope you are well brother and thank you for your thoughts...

# those who know do not speak...

# be well, travel long, and be you...

end comments

message ends
__________________________________________________________________________________________

On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 10:19 PM, Frantisek Apfelbeck <algoldor at yahoo.com>wrote:

> Hi Maestro,
> Shit happens, I hope you take it easy - well within the reasons. I had
> quite a situation in Korea recently with a very imbecile troll, what a
> waste of time.
>
> Anyway enjoy Noisebridge, hopefully the cloud will past soon.
>
> Sincerely from Jeju,
>
> Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck
>
> biotechnologist&kvasir and hacker
>
>
> http://www.frantisekapfelbeck.org
>
>
> "There is no way to peace, peace is the way." Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
>
>   ------------------------------
> *From:* maestro <maestro415 at gmail.com>
> *To:* danny at spesh.com; maestro <maestro415 at gmail.com>;
> Noisebridge-discuss <Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>
> *Sent:* Sunday, March 10, 2013 10:48 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] On Asking People To Leave (Was Re:
> Shawn L. )
>
> quoting:
>
>
> >What you mean here, Maestro, is that *you* were asked to leave,
>
> * what does it matter whom it was, i intentionally didn't use anyone's
> name to refer to it in a broad sense of the space without individual
> agenda(s). so you begin a huge inaccurate diatribe that follows in
> attempt(s) to project your personal judgement(s) of me into the entire
> space.
>
> *i usually wouldn't respond to any of it as it just validates you and your
> silly games (not to mention your sheer love of attempting and encouraging
> confrontation between people sans facts and reality so you can fill
> meetings with drama) but there are some details that warrant
> clarification...
>
> >because you were sitting in the middle of a packed Third Monday
> >Technoactivism event I was hosting
>
> * total, utter bullshit. (and interesting you went and found which number
> it was) and i showed a veteran member exactly where said SMALL table was in
> the BACK corner(where anyone was welcome to join me and did and part of it
> was used for people to write and share info) removed from the main space
> and exactly what happened to which they shook their head in sudo-disgust as
> to why anyone would even say anything to me...
> *not to mention some of us were at the meeting ON TIME and set up our
> laptops and don't need to accomodate stragglers that like to come
> 'whenever' and make everyone adjust to them (a lot after the 1st half of
> the meeting).
> >and we were clearing out tables so
> >that more people could sit comfortably and it ended up with many people
> >helping to clear out the tables except for the table you were sitting
> >at
>
> * so?
>
> >because you refused to let anyone take it away from you
>
> * you bet. when a douche comes up and rudely says "i'm taking this table"
> when someone is sitting there with their laptop open, headphones on, stuff
> set-up and minding their own business, you bet. and i didn't accost him i
> merely said "no. you aren't. and when they began pecking like a chickenhead
> i merely calmly said; "go away." and they did without any confrontation 'at
> that point'...
>
> >and you glared at everyone
>
> * again, total and utter bullshit.
>
>
> >Tom (who is kind of cranky this way)
>
> * NB translate = n./ adj. -> douchebag/troll
>
> >asked MCT to help deal with you and MCT asked you to leave.
>
> * who the hell is mct and why are you using acronyms in your post rather
> than stating their name(s)?
>
> * deal with me? enough said there.
>
> > Then
> >you were EVEN MORE OUTRAGED
>
> * i was never outraged, you have never seen me outraged. and merely said
> "go away". AGAIN.
>
> >and started asking people whether they were members
>
> * sure did, wanted to know if it was members acting this unexcellent.
>
>
> >Then you asked me to come over and mediate, and lo I did sorely roll my
> >eyes, because you were actually pulling this tantrum right in the middle
> >of my meeting,
>
> *what color is the sky on your world? a tantrum? your recounting would be
> great to use @ law schools teaching them how to shred you on the stand
>
> >and you were sat there with the only table like it was a
> liferaft
>
> * NB translate = trolls "look, that dude is way too comfortable and quiet,
> let's go fuck with him and try to make him uncomfortable; then make him out
> to be a monster because he's big and ugly; try to get him to react
> negatively then we can make a scene and satiate our attention whore
> addiction(s)
>
> >and somehow I was supposed to sympathise with you
>
> * i could care not for your sympathy, YOU were called over simply because
> YOU seemed to be organizing (though it was very disorganized) the event and
> had posted about it prior. you neglect to mention that you were confused
> about where to even have it until i sent a post to YOUR thread suggesting
> church. again; color/sky/world
>
> > andI was like "well, actually Maestro, maybe you *should* leave"
>
> * that was hilarious. again; color/sky/world
>
>
> >and at thispoint you pulled the BUT THIS IS ANARCHY and started shouting
> and
>
> >denying that you were shouting and so on and so forth.
>
> * man, you make up more shit than fertilizer companies can distribute.
>
>
>  >I mean, we can
> >take this to the high papal court
>
> * i'd say what the fuck are you talking about (ah. too late) but that's
> the general theme of your diatribe.
> * the high papal court? 1. i think you need to stop getting high but
> that's not for me to... 2. there is no pope and FUCK the popes and all
> their child molesting minions.
>
> >but I just thought, oh man Maestro, he sure knows how to write write his
> >emails like Bash comments, but boy he is sometimes a dick so let's leave
> >him there.
>
> * again. color/sky/.world. you don't even know me stop acting like you do.
> what an unexcellent statement.
>
> >And Tom was super-outraged, and we talked about it a meeting
>
> *WEAHHHH. sniff sniff sniff. WEAHHH....
>
> * again. erronious details. the event was brought up, people rolled their
> eyes, groaned at him (as i am told so many do on a constant basis all
> around the space) shook their heads and quickly tossed it aside as
> rediculous and stupid as quoted to me by one that was in attendance...
>
> >but ultimately I think we just put it down to you being a
> >grumpy fucker.
>
> * i love that my happiness, patience, and calm defend me from your
> confusion, sadness, and anger
>
>
> 9. So this one is kind of funny, because at the risk of working purely
> off inaccurate hearsay, the big thing some people say about you Maestro
> is that when you want people to do things, you pretend to call *me* on
> your phone and then say okay I am talking to Danny who is an Important
> Member, and he says to do THIS.
>
> * i thought that's all you do is 'work' off pure inaccuracy to cause
> conflict(s)
> * ROFLMFAO (x73) i pretend to call YOU??? then say that? who the fuck are
> smoking crack with?
> * REHAB, seriously.
> * why don't say who made this shit up?
> * who the fuck walks around pretending to call anyone, let alone YOU???
> * i've never called you in my life and don't consider you an important
> member.
> * why are you hiding whose saying this utter bullshit?
>
>
> >And it is a bit embarassing
>
> * you embarass yourself this is true
>
> >because the first time you did this
>
> *1st time? more times? ah. no times.
>
>
> >obviously Reverend Mik later asked me if I had really said to you
> >Maestro that the Reverend Mik should throw everyone out of Turing except
> you
>
> * what the fuck? who the fuck is reverend mik and why is he/she saying i
> ever said this?
>
> * again. COLOR/SKY/WORLD
>
> >And after that, just FYI, people know that you don't even dial a number
> >on your phone and see you holding it to you head like you're talking to
> >someone and they just roll their eyes some more.
>
> * yes danny, i bring my hasbro phone to the space and play barbie
> bootycall...
> * "people" know? who are these "people" danny?, are they there more when
> you're off your meds?
> * are they living in your beard?
> * do they have NAMES?
>
>
> >It turns out that
> >actually we do talk to each other about your crazy antics.
>
> * you must be really BORED and LONELY.
>
> >Your modus operandi
>
> * don't try latin, it makes you more shallow
>
> >seems to be when somebody asks you to do something
> >is to be OUTRAGED and then claim that somebody needs to be in authority
> >to tell you to do that
>
> * there are no 'authorities' @ NB
> * i've never been outraged @ NB
>
> >you claim that
> >nobody is in authority, and therefore nobody can tell you do anything.
>
> * there are no 'authorities" @ NB
>
> >And occasionaly you pretend to phone people who you think might be the
> >Chief Anarchists, or something.
>
> * wow. again with the pretend phone call bullshit. meds, meds, meds
> * let's have whomever is saying this named and then asked "what the fuck
> are you talking about troll?"
>
> AGAIN. color/sky/world
>
>
> well, wow,  if i was an attention whore i would be saturated in my own cum
> by now...
>
> thankfully, i digress to my place of serenity and synchronization with the
> knowledge that:
> 1. there are beings that are VERY bored, lonely, and sad...
> 2. there are many reading this whom i have shared it with laughing their
> asses off in tears...
> 3. hopefully all that have invented in their minds i am grumpy fucker will
> keep to these thought(s) so it keeps you the fuck away from me and the
> others that come to the space to do positive shit and live in peaceful
> anarchy wherever WE are...
>
>
> again quoting an excellent veteran member:
> >
> > >with respect to the hope that such discussion would
> > >tend to educate the community that
> > >* members have no privileges over non-members
> > >* we each must treat all others excellently
> > >* there are no sanctioned activities that trump other activities
> > >* that a group of people place demands on others is unacceptable
> > >  in this doocratic, consensus-oriented community.
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 8:23 PM, Danny O'Brien <danny at spesh.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Mar 08, 2013 at 03:34:44PM -0800, maestro wrote:
> > ^ +1 justin...
> >
> > ^  1st off, a blanket vague e-mail to the discuss list asking people
> (who were
> > not involved in whatever this is) to accost someone in the space and try
> and
> > tell them to leave without any documentation of an incident <in the
> space> or
> > what the fuck it's about composed by someone who by appearances wasn't
> even
> > involved in an incident with the subject(person) of the mail???
> >
>
> Soooo I'm not actually requiring or ordering anyone to do this. If you
> don't want to do it, that's fine. I realise that doing it without
> knowing any background is kind of weird, but I'm happy to discuss it
> with anyone in person, and I'm okay with you thinking it is all kind of
> weird.
>
> To clarify, one of the reasons why the Noisebridge tradition has emerged
> over the last few years of asking people to leave and come back at
> meeting is to defuse immediate situations. It doesn't mean anything more
> than some matter has arisen that the people involved feel uncomfortable
> handling on their own, and would rather discuss it with the wider
> community.
>
> It's not intended as a punishment. Indeed, if one feels outraged that
> one will have to spend a maximum of seven days not at Noisebridge, I do
> rather think one is probably making Noisebridge too much of your life,
> and need a break anyway.
>
> I also strongly believe the following points represent a consensus
> position at this point, although it isn't the sort of thing that we put
> through official consensus, it's definitely something that fits with
> what most of us do when we're doacratically handling these situations.
>
> 1. If you're in an argument with somebody that seems irresolvable and
> looks like it's escalating, you or they should ask the other to leave
> and come back to meeting. It's okay for both sides to do that, because
> that gets the confrontation out of the space, and gives time for people
> to calm down.
>
> 2. It's considered excellent to leave and come to the meeting. It counts
> in your favor.
>
> 3. Not leaving isn't excellent, because at that point at least one
> person is stuck in an immediately intractable problem.
>
> 4. Neither is it excellent to leave, and coming back before meeting. Nor
> should thou take over an hour leaving and then hover around the gate,
> very slowly picking up your laptop pieces, like with Junior that last
> time.
>
> 5. It's almost certainly not excellent, incidentally, to try and game
> this by just repeatedly asking people to leave and come back at the next
> meeting, and then like two minutes after the meeting, ask them to leave
> and come back to the next meeting, etc. There are many other exploits like
> this that you can think of. Almost all of them fall under another
> widely-held hackerspace axiom, "don't be a dick", and won't get you any
> credit when you come to the meeting with a big grin on your face.
> Indeed, you may find that the person who did the asking to leave will be
> in far bigger disgrace than the person who left. This happens. A lot.
>
> 5. If you feel ABSOLUTELY outraged about being kicked out, come back at
> meeting, and almost certainly other people will feel ABSOLUTELY OUTRAGED
> on your behalf, or perhaps roll their eyes at what happened. It is a
> good way to see how the rest of the community feels. It is very unlikely
> that if you are asked to leave for a dumb reason that the rest of the
> meeting will sympathise with the person telling you to leave. If they
> do, perhaps your OUTRAGE was misplaced.
>
> 6. And yes you are part of a community, and your big "nobody tells *me*
> what to do" isn't actually the anarchism we practice here. Otherwise you
> could just turn the place into a satanic ice cream parlor and everyone
> would be like woooo anarchy, which they would not. Well, maybe at first,
> but then they would be like why are these arduinos vanilla flavored and
> melting, and the crying would begin.
>
> So that is what I think is our broad consensus. Now to go into more details
> of your specific complaints:
>
> /* *********************************************************************
>
> > ^ and by someone whom isn't in charge of anyone or anything?
> >
> > ^ wot?
> >
> > ^ so; now in just the last month,
> > a) people have been harassed and told the police would be called on them
> whom
> > were minding their own business and participating positively in an event
> at NB.
> >
>
> A. What you mean here, Maestro, is that *you* were asked to leave,
> because you were sitting in the middle of a packed Third Monday
> Technoactivism event I was hosting, and we were clearing out tables so
> that more people could sit comfortably and it ended up with many people
> helping to clear out the tables except for the table you were sitting
> at, because you refused to let anyone take it away from you, and you
> glared at everyone, until eventually Tom (who is kind of cranky this
> way) asked MCT to help deal with you, and MCT asked you to leave. Then
> you were EVEN MORE OUTRAGED and started asking people whether they were
> members, or whether their name was on the lease, like that mattered.
>
> Then you asked me to come over and mediate, and lo I did sorely roll my
> eyes, because you were actually pulling this tantrum right in the middle
> of my meeting, and you were sat there with the only table like it was a
> liferaft, and somehow I was supposed to sympathise with you, andI was
> like "well, actually Maestro, maybe you *should* leave",and at this
> point you pulled the BUT THIS IS ANARCHY and started shouting and
> denying that you were shouting and so on and so forth. I mean, we can
> take this to the high papal court and everything like Tom always wants
> to, but I just thought, oh man Maestro, he sure knows how to write write
> his
> emails like Bash comments, but boy he is sometimes a dick so let's leave
> him there. And Tom was super-outraged, and we talked about it at
> meeting, but ultimately I think we just put it down to you being a
> grumpy fucker.
>
> > b) someone else asked people to summon another person to a meeting to be
> asked
> > to leave the space permanently WITHOUT said requester even attending the
> > meeting,
>
> B. Don't really know about this. It sometimes happens. The consequences
> of such a travesty of justice that everyone rolls their eyes at meeting
> and goes, sorry about that, X is kind of crazy. Where X is either the
> person doing the summoning, or the crazy person being asked to leave. It
> is usually down to craziness.
>
> >
> > c) people have been going around the space whom are in charge of NOTHING
> > 'trying' to tell people what to do.
>
> 9. So this one is kind of funny, because at the risk of working purely
> off inaccurate hearsay, the big thing some people say about you Maestro
> is that when you want people to do things, you pretend to call *me* on
> your phone and then say okay I am talking to Danny who is an Important
> Member, and he says to do THIS.
>
> And it is a bit embarassing because the first time you did this,
> obviously Reverend Mik later asked me if I had really said to you
> Maestro that the Reverend Mik should throw everyone out of Turing except
> you, and I said, no I don't even think Maestro has my number, how weird.
>
> And after that, just FYI, people know that you don't even dial a number
> on your phone and see you holding it to you head like you're talking to
> someone and they just roll their eyes some more. It turns out that
> actually we do talk to each other about your crazy antics.
>
> Your modus operandi seems to be when somebody asks you to do something
> is to be OUTRAGED and then claim that somebody needs to be in authority
> to tell you to do that, and then when that doesn't work, you claim that
> nobody is in authority, and therefore nobody can tell you do anything.
> And occasionaly you pretend to phone people who you think might be the
> Chief Anarchists, or something.
>
> Whereas the truth is, it just isn't true that nobody is in charge at
> Noisebridge. *Everybody* is in charge at Noisebridge, and if you're not
> stepping up, and you're not listening to others and being courteous to
> their needs, and you're just declaiming, chances are you're being
> unexcellent. And usually that's okay, but sometimes it makes people so
> mad that they ask you to leave. And lo, we all roll our eyes.
>
> Anyway, this is all by-the-by, because we actually have a serious issue
> here with court cases and incidents of harassment at the space and so
> on, all of which is a little unclear at this point, but honestly growing
> clearer every day. I am happy to talk to you about it at the meeting,
> but I doubt it will really get much clearer before then, and certainly
> not via a mailing list.
>
> I do love you, you big grumpy fucker,
>
> message ends
>
> d.
>
> ********************************************************************** */
>
> >
> > ^ most UNEXCELLENT.
> >
> > ^ no idea what the incident is/was (if any) but this is being handled
> poorly.
> >
> >
> > note:
> > anyone that may be new to the space or a vet just mis-informed or
> confused,
> > PLEASE ask more than one person in the space about something you want to
> know
> > and remember NB is an open community and your voice is just as important
> as any
> > other.
> >
> > quoting an excellent veteran member from another incident:
> >
> > >with respect to the hope that such discussion would
> > >tend to educate the community that
> > >* members have no privileges over non-members
> > >* we each must treat all others excellently
> > >* there are no sanctioned activities that trump other activities
> > >* that a group of people place demands on others is unacceptable
> > >  in this doocratic, consensus-oriented community.
> >
> >
> > message ends
> >
> ________________________________________________________________________________
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 11:24 PM, Danny O'Brien <danny at spesh.com> wrote:
> >
> >     So could anyone who sees Shawn L. (picture here:
> >     https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/File:User_shawnl.jpg  ) ask him to
> >     leave the space, and come to the next Noisebridge meeting? Preferably
> >     a little bit earlier than 8PM, maybe 7PM, so we can speak before the
> >     meeting?
> >
> >     If Shawn doesn't leave or has any questions, I'm emailable at
> >     danny at spesh.com.. Feel free to tell him I can meet up and discuss
> the
> >     matter with him.
> >
> >     d.
> >     _______________________________________________
> >     Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >     Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >     https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
>
> > ~the quieter you become, the more you are able to hear...
> >
>
>
>
>
> --
> *~the quieter you become, the more you are able to hear...*
>
> _______________________________________________
> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>
>
>

-- 

*~the quieter you become, the more you are able to hear...*
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